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Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by stevefan1999 on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @06:42AM (#33419344)
Full text:

The litigation between Arm and Qualcomm has taken an unexpected turn. The British developer of processor architectures decided to radically change its business model: first, license fees will have to be paid by manufacturers of end devices, including smartphones and tablets; second, third-party components, including GPUs, NPUs and ISPs, will be prohibited in chips with Arm processors.

In late August Arm filed a lawsuit against Qualcomm. Qualcomm absorbed server processor developer NUVIA and, according to Arm, had to update its license agreement because it deemed all previous agreements with the company invalid after it bought it.

Qualcomm filed a countersuit against the British developer, and new documentation on the case contains crucial details.

Qualcomm's updated lawsuit says that after 2024, Arm will stop licensing its processor architecture to semiconductor component manufacturers - payments will be charged to end-device manufacturers. Arm, according to the U.S. company, has already told OEMs that soon the only way for them to get Arm-based chips will be through direct license fees, and they'll have to accept these rules of the game.

But that's not all.

The British company has also decided to tighten its policy with respect to chip developers like Qualcomm: they will not be able to use third-party components in single-chip platforms with Arm processors if Arm offers their analogs as a licensed product.

This will affect graphics and network processors, as well as image processors. In other words, Arm will prohibit the creation of duos like Samsung and AMD chips, as well as MediaTek and Imagination - both pairs of companies cooperate in the field of mobile graphics.

And Qualcomm itself does not use GPUs from Arm, but its own. Such an initiative Arm has clear signs of anti-competitive behavior, notes the resource SemiAnalysis, and it is possible that these steps will accelerate the companies' efforts to develop chips based on open architecture RISC-V.

However, some of the British company's partners may not be affected by the new rules. For example, NVIDIA has a 20-year license for the development of components with Arm-architecture. Apple was at the origins of Arm, so it is unlikely that this tandem can be destroyed so easily. There is also a version that a mutually beneficial cooperation binds Arm with Broadcom. Thus, the dispute between Arm and Qualcomm in just over two years threatens to affect the interests of many smaller players.

Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by stevefan1999 on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @06:55AM (#33419458)
My own conspiracy theory: Since Nuvia is led by former Apple engineers and Apple doesn't want Qualcomm to have a toe-to-toe fight, Apple pressured Arm to either keep getting the high premium license fee from Apple and destroy Qualcomm and consequently relationships with all other licensees (which includes but not limited to Qualcomm, Samsung, AMD and even embedded market), or Apple would move away and start their new architecture in secret and ditch ARM architecture in long term just like Apple ended its course with x86.

This is a very good news for RISC-V and with the recent news of Android being ported to RISC-V I will say 2024 (not until 2023 Q4 I guess) will be the year RISC-V starting to explode.

Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by throw827474737 on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @08:15AM (#33420150)
> RISC-V starting to explode.

I hope for that!! But will it be better in regards to not every instantiation needings its very own tiny Linux kernel patch and device trees? Or similar one level down into the embedded world, a true CMSIS like HAL that includes peripherals, not the half-assed attempt of ARM-CMSIS where you still always need to fiddle with vendor's peripheral driver SDKs? That would be so great!

Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by BirAdam on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @08:54AM (#33420494)
I expect that some RISC-V implementations will always need patches, but as any ISA matures it tends to get standardized and the implementations start to look more and more similar. In the case of RISC-V, the costs for both the implementer and the customer will get better as it becomes more standardized, which will help to push both more implementation and more adoption. This in turn drives more standardization… it’s a feedback loop. Then, you will always have your one-off oddities. These are important. Sometimes, semi-custom platforms are for experimentation, and sometimes they’re just super niche use-cases. RISC-V is great in these situations due to zero license fees.
Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by stevefan1999 on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @09:29AM (#33420904)
It is not necessarily zero license fee because you can theoretically spun-off RISC-V designs to your own proprietary ISA. Some Chinese scientists did a case study on this possibility by creating a new ISA called RISC-X [1], but they are not progressing to do any harm right now.

[1]: https://www.cnx-software.com/2022/07/08/risc-x-top-chinese-s...

Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by delfinom on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @09:02AM (#33420581)
RISCV isn't that standardized that there won't be a plethora and mess of peripherals available from every manufacturer. It will be much like ARM.

In many ways it's a good thing. There's no point in more than one manufacturer existing if everything was standardized down to the literal register map. They all end up using the same fabs anyway.

Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by snvzz on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @05:46AM (#33433347)
>RISCV isn't that standardized that there won't be a plethora and mess of peripherals available from every manufacturer. It will be much like ARM.

Hardware, sure. Although not as much, as standarization goes further than ARM, with the platform profiles including e.g. standard serial ports, interrupt controllers and so on.

In practice, on the software side, it'll be closer to your usual IBM PC clone.

The boot process, with SBI and UEFI standarized, is also part of the relevant platform profiles. How to get to the point where a kernel loaded in memory is defined. The environment this kernel finds is also defined. The kernel does actually get a description of the hardware.

ARM did very little of that, and did it too late. RISC-V has it all in place before the hardware is even there, so it should be alright.

Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by stoplying1 on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @10:30AM (#33421708)
Signs so far point to a big fat no (as someone running a custom uboot build on visionfive that works better than the bsp from manufacturer). Plenty of blobs, still device trees, etc.
Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by Varloom on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @09:46AM (#33421165)
True and Apple & Softbank (ARM Owner) have joint VC.
Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by scarface74 on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @10:44AM (#33421870)
Apple is not about to change their entire architecture that runs across watches, phones, monitors, computers, pencils , headphones, speakers, and set top boxes over something this minor.
Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by vesinisa on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @06:51AM (#33419419)
What site was this content stolen from? Google finds nothing. The submitted link on HN seems to be a poorly copy&pasted content pirate.
Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by outsomnia on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @06:57AM (#33419470)
https://www.semianalysis.com/p/arm-changes-business-model-oe...

Qualcomm have been involved in many IP right bustups over the years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualcomm#Patents_and_patent_di...

I wonder if they will find that doesn't help them argue against getting some of their own medicine.

Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by causi on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @06:54AM (#33419439)
And Qualcomm itself does not use GPUs from Arm, but its own.

Fuck. Adreno GPUs are light-years ahead of Arm designs when it comes to console emulation.

Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by stevefan1999 on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @06:50AM (#33419411)
tl;dr summary:

1. Arm will stop licensing its processor architecture to semiconductor component manufacturers by charging payments to end-device manufacturers.

2. Only way for OEMs to get Arm-based chips will be through direct license fees

3. Third-party components such are custom GPUs and NPUs are no longer directly incorporable with Arm processors. This would probably mean they need to operate as a coprocessor of some kind that would not be tightly integrated.

3.1 This means Samsung's Exynos, AMD's PSP and Imagination's PowerVR are probably *fucked*

Conclusion: ARM is really fed up with Qualcomm and is wishing to step up the game by hurting itself. But that said, it's more like "Friendship ended with Qualcomm, Samsung and AMD (but it's more like a frenemy), now Apple and NVIDIA are my homies"

Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by mschuster91 on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @07:40AM (#33419861)
> ARM is really fed up with Qualcomm

Everyone is fed up with Qualcomm at that point.

Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by speed_spread on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @07:48AM (#33419924)
> Imagination's PowerVR are probably fucked

I would have no issue paying for a RISC-V + licensed PowerVR core that's well supported in Wayland and Mesa.

Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by monocasa on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @10:01AM (#33421354)
Good news, the StarFive JH7110 in the upcoming VisionFive 2 and Pine64's Star64 should fit that bill.
Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by WastingMyTime89 on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @09:04AM (#33420603)
Your post is missing a big "according to Qualcomm, a company known for stretching the rules and truth to favour itself and currently being sued for its misuse of ARM intellectual property following the Nuvia acquisition" disclaimer at the beginning.

I would need at least some OEMs confirmation and a statement for Samsung before I believe it.

Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by monocasa on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @01:10PM (#33424077)
I'd normally agree with you, but there's some other data that ARM has been cracking down on third party IP vendors for years.

Imagination is almost dead not just because of Apple opening a chip dev branch basically across the street and offering Apple salaries to nearly anyone who wanted to jump ship, but also because of ARM licensing Mali + ARM CPUs for cheaper than ARM CPUs by themselves. It's why you see Mali in just about every Mediatek and Allwinner design. Even a free IMG GPU would be more expensive. It's why IMG went through that boondoggle buying MIPS in the first place.

So Qualcomm's complaint matches the current trajectory of ARM's corporate strategy.

Re:ARM to prohibit proximity of CPU w 3rd-party modules in o... by bhc on Tuesday November 01, 2022 @10:32AM (#33421731)
It's possible that Samsung got a briefing on what's happening with ARM and Qualcomm and negotiated an extended reprieve from the new licensing scheme about a month ago when Masayoshi Son had a high profile meeting with the head of Samsung to discuss "a strategic alliance between Samsung and Arm."

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/SoftBank2/SoftBank-to-discu...