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Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by pmarreck on Sunday October 30, 2022 @08:15PM (#33400494)
Two thoughts:

1) He's not touching on the software cost of integrating different sensor data into the same trained machine learning model; it is likely far simpler to just stick to stereoscopic vision data (the same thing the human genome decided!)

2) That said, it seems at least theoretically advantageous to have a sensory system that exceeds that which humans are limited to; things like LIDAR can work in complete darkness and potentially spot, for example, pedestrians crossing a dark road without any reflective clothing on, where a vision-based system would fail (perhaps add infrared sensation?)

Anyway, doesn't AEB (automatic emergency braking) have to be installed in every car, by law, in the US, around now? And wouldn't that be less reliable if done via vision?

Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by sfifs on Sunday October 30, 2022 @08:50PM (#33400743)
> likely far simpler to just stick to stereoscopic vision data (the same thing the human genome decided!)

Yeah and till we had reliable and powerful artificial lighting, it was highly unsafe to journey in low visibility/ darkness. We used to finish journeys when darkness fell.

Animals that do require precise movement in low visibility (bats, dolphins) conditions often evolved ultrasound solutions.

So should we license Tesla vehicles to only operate when visibility and weather forecast is good and not drive in the dark at all?

Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by jquery on Sunday October 30, 2022 @10:43PM (#33401492)
Excellent points, I didn't think about the fact that even evolution couldn't come up with a vision system that works as well in the dark as it works in the daytime.
Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by pmarreck on Monday October 31, 2022 @09:13PM (#33415745)
Well actually, the human vision system at night, while not as good as cats and perhaps dogs, is still much greater than any camera we've come up with thus far, I read something that claimed we can actually detect individual photons hitting our retina, once we are adapted to the darkness

https://www.science.org/content/article/human-eye-can-detect...

Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by n0tth3dro1ds on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:51PM (#33401859)
>it is likely far simpler to just stick to stereoscopic vision data (the same thing the human genome decided!)

There’s a lot more to perception while driving than just stereoscopic vision.

First, your stereoscopic “cameras” (eyes) are mounted in free-rotating sockets, which are themselves mounted in a rotating and swiveling base (your head/neck). Your eyes can do rapid single-point autofocus better than any existing camera. They also have built in glare mitigations —- squinting, sunglasses, and sun visors. This system is way more advanced than fixed cameras. Yes, even an array of fixed cameras with a 360 degrees field of view.

Then you have your sense of touch, your hearing, and your equilibrio sense. You feel motion in the car. You feel vibrations in the pedals. You hear road noise, other cars, sirens, and the engine (not much in EVs). You smell weird smells and know when you’re driving with your e-brake on or when there’s a skunk nearby. There’s a lot getting fused with the vision to make it all happen, and I think you’d be surprised how “broken” your driving capabilities would be if you took one of these “background” senses out of the equation.

My anecdote: I drive a manual transmission car. A few months back, I woke up with no hearing in my right ear. Spooked, I drove to urgent care. I could not drive well at all —- I was holding low gears for way too long. I learned that I use hearing almost exclusively to know when to shift. If you had asked me beforehand, I probably would have said that I’m visually monitoring the tachometer to know when to shift. Not the case. Also, I had a TERRIBLE sense of my surroundings. As I drive, I’m definitely building a model of the environment around me based on road noise, sound from other cars, sirens, and the like. Without hearing in just one ear, I felt very disconnected and unsafe. Living in California where lanesplitting is legal, I had several motorcycles catch me completely off guard. I had my hearing restored at urgent care and everything went back to normal immediately on the drive home.

I think Andrej and Tesla massively overestimate vision’s sole ability to solve the problem. Humans are fusing lots of sensation to drive well.

Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by pmarreck on Monday October 31, 2022 @09:11PM (#33415734)
Good points. What did your temporary deafness end up being, if I may ask?
Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by n0tth3dro1ds on Monday October 31, 2022 @09:19PM (#33415789)
Water and ear wax. I went swimming the day before.
Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by kennyloginz on Wednesday November 02, 2022 @02:02AM (#33431873)
Glad to hear it was temporary!