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Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by threeseed on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:47PM (#33398501)
It was an ominous answer.

We really should be focusing on what is the best solution and trying to solve price issues through existing techniques e.g. economies of scale, competition, miniaturisation. Instead they are trying to build whatever solution they can that fits in a pre-defined cost window.

Except this isn't a new phone or sneakers we are trying to take to market it's something that will directly impact people's lives.

Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by Nomentatus on Sunday October 30, 2022 @05:13PM (#33398772)
You can get to this conclusion if you're sure Andrej is lying, and that the risks cited are smoke; but only then. BTW, I've upgraded my sneakers after a couple falls on a rough beach with tangled driftwood (drift trees, really) proved their cheap too-slick surface had real world consequences. I was lucky not to break a bone. I'm going to bet he isn't lying, but I can understand someone making the opposite bet, market competition being market competition.
Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by cbsmith on Monday October 31, 2022 @03:14AM (#33402846)
I don't think he's lying. I think he's looking at things from a particular perspective, and that perspective is being critiqued, as it should be.
Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by Nomentatus on Monday October 31, 2022 @12:25PM (#33408085)
True, he could be wildly misled but he's been around doing this for a while, so that seems unlikely. He could be truly delusional in either case but it's still kinda necessary to knock down his arguments or logic; and that's the critique or analysis I'm not seeing. Just assertions again and again that the real reason is economics triumphing over safety. I'm beginning to think that the idea that there are genuine trade-offs in life is just ungraspable or offensive to many.
Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by cbsmith on Monday October 31, 2022 @07:05PM (#33414600)
There's a lack of evidence either way, which really should tell you all you need to know. I don't think they're delusional, but they are constrained by their context.

Yes, with ML models, you often can be better off trimming down your sensor data. Usually though, you don't remove entire categories of sensor data. Even when you do, to be confident in such a move, you need to first achieve a working model with whatever data you have, and then through refinement you can prove that whole categories of data are more hinderance than help. They haven't done that.

It seems quite clear that the reality is a full sensor array is just economically non-viable with their business model, and that's framing their whole thought process.

Because they promised FSD back in 2017, they can't acknowledge that going without those sensors means it's going to take them much longer to achieve FSD. Because of safety/regulatory oversight, they also can't acknowledge that going without those sensors means there will be additional safety risk.

So they're stuck making these rationalizations that everyone in the industry knows are at best half-truths. No doubt, at some point we'll figure out how to do self driving with a much more limited sensor package, and when we do, we'll achieve a significant improvement in the cost effectiveness of self-driving.

In the meantime, there's a lot of "rationalization" going on.

Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by mensetmanusman on Sunday October 30, 2022 @08:14PM (#33400484)
It can’t be solved without a few 10s of billion in infrastructure investment.
Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by minhazm on Sunday October 30, 2022 @08:21PM (#33400528)
There's an opportunity cost trying to get to the best solution. What about all of the people that die in the mean time while we delay rolling out something due to it not being perfect? Just doing some googling the Waymo stack is estimated to cost somewhere in the range of $50-100k, not including the car. A better solution that no one can afford is no solution at all.

Ultimately the only requirement is that the system is safer than humans by some margin that people are comfortable with buying such a system. If that amount is even as little as 2x safer than humans, we still have a moral obligation to roll that out even if we could be 5x safer if we had another $50k worth of sensors and processors on the car.

Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by wonnage on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:13PM (#33401659)
Wonder if this is a strong argument for public transit too. While self driving cars are developed let make every effort to figure out if we can get people to take the existing self driving trains and subways…
Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by AlexandrB on Monday October 31, 2022 @12:11AM (#33401968)
These kinds of moral arguments are silly because they hit a brick wall as soon as they encounter how society operates in practice. If Tesla has a moral obligation to roll out an FSD that's a just a little safer than humans, then do they not also have an obligation to make it available to all their competitors? If not, does every individual have a moral obligation to buy only Tesla cars? Do governments now have an obligation to subsidize Tesla cars so anyone can afford them? Etc.

And all this only considers first order effects. If a 2x safer FSD feels more dangerous that normal driving and thus reduces FSD uptake for a decade, doesn't Tesla have a moral obligation not to release it to preserve the perception of safety of self driving technology?

Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by taneq on Sunday October 30, 2022 @08:29PM (#33400602)
Whose money should “we” be spending on this grail quest?

This mindset is something I see a lot, that “best” means the technically optimal (or sometimes just personally most convenient) solution to the specific problem that they personally are working on. If they take a step back and look at the bigger picture, the technical merits are usually only a tiny part of the whole decision.

Re:Andrej Karpathy: Why Tesla Removed Radar and Ultrasonic S... by throwawaylinux on Sunday October 30, 2022 @08:38PM (#33400670)
Everything in engineering has a cost tradeoff, and always has. And peoples lives are improved by things which they can afford There is no "best solution" you can talk seriously about without talking about cost.

Why not have a thousand sensors if more is better?