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Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by bdowling on Saturday October 29, 2022 @07:59PM (#33389208)
It would be reasonable for Twitter to pay Tesla for the audit work, because otherwise it would be a misuse of Tesla resources to only benefit the Tesla CEO.
Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by howlin on Saturday October 29, 2022 @10:00PM (#33390202)
Even if TWTR paid TSLA, this is still an obvious conflict of interest.
Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by tsol on Saturday October 29, 2022 @10:11PM (#33390284)
Plenty of companies with the same owner contract with one another. It's extremely common. When they're in the same industry, we call it 'vertical integration'
Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by brookst on Saturday October 29, 2022 @10:54PM (#33390566)
Musk doesn’t own Tesla. It’s a public company, and that comes with obligations to all shareholders.
Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by parkingrift on Saturday October 29, 2022 @11:24PM (#33390705)
No, it doesn’t actually. People just think that.
Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by minhazm on Sunday October 30, 2022 @01:00AM (#33391244)
This happens all the time between SpaceX and Tesla. SpaceX is a private company just like Twitter and Elon owns a lower percentage of SpaceX than he does Twitter. There are even people who are on payroll for both companies. For example Charles Kuehmann is VP of Materials Engineering for both Tesla and SpaceX[1].

[1] https://www.linkedin.com/in/charles-kuehmann-00308a12/

Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by rhaway84773 on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:44AM (#33391173)
Which is completely irrelevant considering Tesla and Twitter don’t have the same owner.
Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by eclipxe on Saturday October 29, 2022 @10:12PM (#33390297)
Sure but who is going to realistically enforce any kind of consequence?
Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by kadoban on Saturday October 29, 2022 @11:30PM (#33390751)
Shareholders can and do sue for that type of thing. Doubt anyone serious will though.

If anything it seems more concerning for Twitter, morale there must be just the best right now.

Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by Nomentatus on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:08AM (#33390968)
Companies sell to each other all the time, and this is just the beginning. Tesla is a leader in AI, and Twitter needs a lot of AI to help counter bots, etc, etc. Humans will be in the mix, but AI coming from Tesla is no doubt a huge part of the plan, too. So a look at what code's there now is just a start. Good business for Tesla, good business for Twitter. If one isn't being sacrificed for the sake of the other, there's no conflict of interest.
Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by sveme on Sunday October 30, 2022 @02:27AM (#33391752)
Well, NLP is very different from computer vision.
Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by Nomentatus on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:46PM (#33396033)
Pattern recognition is the game, and that's downstream of NLP, although NLP is a (narrow) variety of pattern recognition. Also, Transformer, and again, it's the hardware that may be Tesla's biggest contribution.
Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by Godel_unicode on Sunday October 30, 2022 @02:57PM (#33397445)
> Pattern recognition is the game

You’ve said this a couple times, it is incorrect. Pattern recognition is simultaneously a terrible way to attack bots, and a great way to kill lots of interesting uses of twitter. This field is much, much more complex than you are making it sound.

NLP is also absolutely not pattern recognition. Perhaps back in the day with expert systems, but that era is far behind us now.

Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by Nomentatus on Sunday October 30, 2022 @03:34PM (#33397799)
Pattern recognition is our best way to express what neural nets do, though no words fully suffice. It's a phrase that goes back to the time when AI was based more on propositional logic, and was used to point to what that approach couldn't do. You could use "sorting by complex characteristics" if you prefer. It's a way of pointing to complex calculations that chug a lot of data, and don't analyse (literally "break apart") well.

Paypal hit the similar barriers for a fraud-sorting task, and even in that day they found that a hybrid approach, part AI part human solved the problem well enough for that company to surive.

It is entirely possible that a couple decades from now we'll have a range of words to cover this whole territory, but I don't think we do now (or you'd have used 'em and cited 'em, or I'd have encountered them.) That we don't yet is understandable, it's early days. Right now if we have a better word or phrase (goal is kinda self-referential) I don't know it - even if I'm talking about the pattern of balance, compostion, color choice and line that makes "art," the pattern that can be called "artistic" is pretty much the best I can do. Feel free to put forward a better word if you would. DALLE-E and Stable Diffusion do seem to be able to recognize and spit out artistic results (rather than ugly, inartistic results) to a surprisingly large extent.

There are a billion ways AI moderation could be done. Many will be worse than useless as you say. One thing I notice a lot is that bad recognition systems merely sort out whatever is odd; if you are eccentric (perhaps because you are ridiculously well-educated) or highly creative you may get sorted out and punished by crap "algorithms." They're cheap-like-borscht systems, they don't give a damn about recognizing or addressing edge cases. It wouldn't be too hard to I sense you've run into a lot of that too. That's one reason why you want both far better (more computationally expensive) nets/associated logic and at least one human in the loop. But as well, as stated, spending more and getting a more complex net that is actively looking for patterns of language that suggest mere (safe) eccentricity or over-education is a case in which more and more detailed pattern-recognition is called for, not less recognition of patterns.

It's absolutely true that in the past companies (looking at you Google, Facebook) have been primarily motivated to reduce the expense of moderation no matter how crude the results. Just to take expensive humans out of the loop, no matter what breaks. That gives exactly the crap results you cite.

But I think Elon is betting that much better AI hardware (from Tesla) and more sophisticed, expensive nets (fed much more data) can, together with humans, do a far better job at a big but affordable price. Part of that bet is, I think, that computing power will decline in price steeply over the next decade and more, so it's worth spending far more (in the short run) on the moderation task, to get it right, than has been spent by social media companies to date.

He wants a lot fewer posts killed, but the bot and fake nation-state-actor posts killed, etc. Hard task. I doubt he thinks that's a dead-easy task.

Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by shapefrog on Sunday October 30, 2022 @03:44AM (#33392132)
> Tesla is a leader in AI, and Twitter needs a lot of AI to help

We will have self twetting twitters by next year.

Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by _djo_ on Sunday October 30, 2022 @05:14AM (#33392645)
Tesla’s AI expertise is narrow and has no applicability to Twitter’s situation.

In reality, the world leader in the application of machine learning and other AI tools to social media content right now is Twitter. They’re also probably the best at international policy and privacy law monitoring and litigation.

Twitter is flawed in many ways, as I think might be inevitable for any large social media platform, but the myth that has developed about them being wholly incompetent at all this is a bizarre one that’s unsupported by the evidence.

Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by Nomentatus on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:45PM (#33396014)
It's the hardware, even more than the software, that Tesla can contribute. Identifying patterns is the task. Gathering and in effect indexing enormous amounts of data is necessary, to say, identify a bot.

I don't doubt that Twitter is on the case, but I also don't doubt that better hardware and a different perspective on the software can help - plus I'm talking about a hybrid approach. The inflexibility of much modern software is stunning to us old folks, but this rather goes double with twitter, for me.

It also has to be said, as the whistleblower has said, that Twitter had a very large financial incentive for tolerating, not even detecting, large numbers of fake accounts and posts; and seems to have succummed to that. Hardly the first company that's happened to - I'd say it's closer to the norm.

Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by alar44 on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:12AM (#33390991)
How? Why wouldn't you pool your resources? What interest is in conflict?
Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by Weryj on Sunday October 30, 2022 @01:48AM (#33391514)
I think the point here is that it's not Elon's resources to pool. Since TSLA is a public company and shareholders don't benefit from their resources going to the CEO's other company for free.
Re:Tesla engineers were on-site to evaluate the Twitter staf... by zo1 on Sunday October 30, 2022 @02:25AM (#33391740)
This is scraping the bottom of the barrel.