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Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by philipkglass on Thursday October 27, 2022 @03:38PM (#33362907)
The only other container that is even worth mentioning is conpressed gas, but it seems to have neither the capacity nor the efficiency of a large hydro deployment.

The largest pumped storage station in the US has a storage capacity of 24,000 MWh:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Sta...

There's an underground hydrogen storage project underway in Delta, Utah with a capacity of 300,000 MWh:

https://www.powermag.com/massive-utah-hydrogen-storage-proje...

It would take 22 Deltas to overtake the world's largest pumped storage plant, a massive Chinese installation with 6.6 terawatt hours of storage capacity:

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/01/04/state-grid-of-china-s...

Still, potential underground hydrogen capacity is tremendous, amounting to thousands of terawatt hours in Europe alone:

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/201910.0187/v1

Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by cwkoss on Thursday October 27, 2022 @04:08PM (#33363314)
How does the energy in underground hydrogen get utilized? Is the capacity the combustive energy, or only the energy from the gas pressure?
Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by philipkglass on Thursday October 27, 2022 @04:30PM (#33363590)
It's burned as fuel in a gas turbine to generate electricity. The process is very similar to burning natural gas in turbines, but some equipment adjustments have to be made when running on hydrogen. The Delta project is going to blend the hydrogen with natural gas when it's burned starting with 30% hydrogen and gradually step up toward 100% hydrogen.

Siemens currently has turbines that can burn up to 75% hydrogen and is targeting 100% hydrogen by 2030:

https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/priorities/future-t...

General Electric has a variety of gas turbines, accepting 50% to 100% hydrogen in the fuel blend:

https://www.ge.com/gas-power/future-of-energy/hydrogen-fuele...

Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by jakewins on Friday October 28, 2022 @04:44AM (#33369072)
Also used for direct industrial heat and as a feedstock!

Eg. the Hybrit project produces iron sponge with electrolyzed hydrogen. So the process becomes

> (electricity + H2O) + Fe3O4 [iron ore] => Fe + H2O

instead of the usual

> C [coke] + Fe3O4 => Fe + CO2

Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by WJW on Thursday October 27, 2022 @04:33PM (#33363639)
No it's mostly the chemical energy in the stored hydrogen, pressure is only a small part of it (though they might insert some expander turbine somewhere in there). Pretty similar to how you'd rate a natural gas storage facility.
Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by pfdietz on Thursday October 27, 2022 @10:35PM (#33366902)
It should be noted that the energy stored in the pressure of gas is zero. All the energy of an ideal gas is the kinetic energy (and rotational/vibrational energy) of its molecules, which is thermal energy. Internal energy of an ideal gas is independent of pressure.

What compressed gas storage does is (aside from combustion energy of a fuel gas) to provide not a store of energy, but a store of reduced entropy, enabling otherwise unusable amounts of heat to be converted to work.

Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by _hypx on Thursday October 27, 2022 @05:16PM (#33364174)
The Delta facility is in its preliminary stages. It could be expanded by something like 50x that of current listed capacity.
Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by ClumsyPilot on Thursday October 27, 2022 @08:23PM (#33365916)
You are confusing energy storage and fuel storage. I am talking about CAES, it uses electricity to compress air and feed that into a container, like a metal cylinder or caverns lined with impermeable material. When you need electricity, you release the air through a generator and produce electricity.

Hydroelectric, compressed air and batteries have round trip efficiency of ~80%.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/compressed-...

The facility you linked produces and stores chemical fuel, and can't even convert it back into electricity. It is really easy to store insane quantity of fuel, just like we can store loads of oil.

The kicker is that production of Hydrogen and other e-fuelds is less than 50% efficient, and converting them back to electricity is another 50% loss. Compression for storage and transportation mean further losses. So the overall round-trip efficiency is expected to be about 25% or lower.

It is probably possible to build an economy based on e-fuels, and that's what many oil companies are pushing for. They are probably the only viable way to achieve seasonal storage. It's a different set of tradeoffs.

Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by philipkglass on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:06PM (#33366226)
The facility you linked produces and stores chemical fuel, and can't even convert it back into electricity.

No, the project includes using Mitsubishi M501JAC combined-cycle gas turbines to turn the hydrogen back into electricity:

https://www.powermag.com/aces-deltas-giant-utah-salt-cavern-...

https://power.mhi.com/products/gasturbines/lineup/m501j

This turbine has a rated combined-cycle efficiency of 64%.

Production of hydrogen is more than 70% efficient in the best current commercial electrolyzers:

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/36705.pdf

Round-trip efficiency is much lower than 80%, but not as low as you have written here.

Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by pencilguin on Friday October 28, 2022 @12:15AM (#33367619)
Industrial-scale electrolysers will soon be well over 90% efficient.
Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by nomel on Friday October 28, 2022 @03:55AM (#33368771)
Any terms I can search to understand these advances? I seemed to remember learning that boring old electrolysis was around 30% efficient!
Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by pencilguin on Friday October 28, 2022 @04:32AM (#33368985)
Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by ClumsyPilot on Friday October 28, 2022 @04:20AM (#33368918)
why are turbines used in place of potentially more efficient fule cells?
Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by AstralStorm on Friday October 28, 2022 @05:51AM (#33369484)
Cost. Fuel cells require quality manufactured membranes that also require regular maintenance and replacement. Getting volume with them is also a hard problem.
Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by scythe on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:27PM (#33366401)
Thermochemical hydrogen offers the best prospect for hydrogen production if it can be worked out, because the whole-process efficiency from solar or nuclear heat can exceed the practical limits of water electrolysis. Most recent work focuses on the copper chloride process (which uses an electrolytic step) [1]. The best purely thermal cycle is sulfur-iodine, but running the process sustainably has yet to be achieved due to the corrosive nature of the intermediates.

1: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S019689041...

Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by rdtwo on Thursday October 27, 2022 @11:15PM (#33367220)
Russians did that at some point in the 70s 80s. They pumped compressed air into some salt mines and that worked well until one of the mines sprung a leak and blew the mountain up
Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by Manuel_D on Thursday October 27, 2022 @08:56PM (#33366148)
Such hydrogen storage facilities already exist, actually. But the hydrogen the store is produced via steam reformation which emits carbon. The big issue with hydrogen storage cheaply producing hydrogen without producing CO2.
Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by pencilguin on Friday October 28, 2022 @01:24AM (#33367992)
There is on fact no such issue because literally no one is even considering producing hydrogen for energy storage in that way.
Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by Manuel_D on Friday October 28, 2022 @02:06PM (#33375022)
Then how is hydrogen going to be stored? Electrolysis remains either inefficient or expensive.
Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by pencilguin on Friday October 28, 2022 @02:41PM (#33375604)
Storage method has exactly nothing to do with production method.

Electrolysis efficiency and expense are entirely sufficient to requirements.

Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by Schroedingersat on Friday October 28, 2022 @11:20PM (#33380669)
Inefficiency doesn't matter if you are storing curtailed energy.

If it makes more financial sense and uses less resources to overbuild solar 3x and curtail 60% of the energy than paying for fuel, then you have 2 units of energy you have already paid for spread out over 6-8hrs/day.

As long as using your $300/kw electrolyser at reduced duty cycle is cheaper and less resource intensive than mining and shipping gas, you do it.

Re:Why Is Hydroelectricity So Green, and yet Unfashionable? by mjevans on Thursday October 27, 2022 @11:01PM (#33367104)
I thought it was missing from the list...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Coulee_Dam#Irrigation

However it seems that the pumped storage I recall hearing about as a kid has an extremely low storage capacity and is more focused on irrigation.