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Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by reader5000 on Friday December 09, 2011 @09:32AM (#3333776)
Apple is grasping for straws here. The argument that out of the space of all possible designs for a tablet, they own the subset defined by the conjunction of "rounded corners AND flat front surface AND uncluttered design AND thin profile etc." is absurdly overbroad. It's like a car manufacturer arguing they own all car designs that have "good gas mileage AND automatic windows AND bluetooth radio AND leather interior" etc. In the weakest argument the features Apple claims as their own are simply universally desirable features that would be obvious to any designer of such a device. In a stronger argument many of features claimed are necessary for the function of any tablet. Not really comfortable with these IP shenanigans harming the market.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by tvon on Friday December 09, 2011 @10:30AM (#3334011)
They're not grasping at straws, they're taking the opportunity the courts have (foolishly) provided them with and doing everything they can with it. It's absurd, but that's the (broken) system we have in place.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by nl on Friday December 09, 2011 @10:42AM (#3334069)
I never defend Apple, but they aren't grasping at straws.

They own design patents on those things, and that gives them protection against things that could be reasonably mistaken for them. Arguments about obviousness are irrelevant under design patent law.

See http://www.theverge.com/2011/04/19/apple-sues-samsung-analys...

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by pyre on Friday December 09, 2011 @11:29AM (#3334296)

  > protection against things that could be reasonably
  > mistaken for them
That sounds more like trademark law.

That said, Apple has to incur a bit of penalty here for being first-to-market. Since the iPad was the first-to-market and the most widely recognized brand, it would not be uncommon for someone to see any tablet (regardless of design similarities) and say, "Is that an iPad?"

It's like Henry Ford claiming that no one else can make cars at the genesis of the Model-T because cars in general are associated with the Ford Motor Company. It would be ridiculous to say that anything with 4 wheels and a combustion engine might be mistaken for a Ford, therefore Ford is the only one that can make cars.

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by meow on Friday December 09, 2011 @12:27PM (#3334565)
Ironically, Ford fought tooth and nail against an overly generic patent for automobile (similar to a design patent because the guy who owns it is a lawyer and never built an actual model before getting the patent) and won.

http://www.bpmlegal.com/wselden.html

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by gujk on Friday December 09, 2011 @09:39PM (#3336717)
That's not what "design patent" means in US law.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by roc on Friday December 09, 2011 @12:46PM (#3334655)
> "That sounds more like trademark law."

Design patents are far more like trademark law than utility patents. And, frankly, the wiggle room for arguing infringement is far less than for Trademarks.

Samsung is not in court for having the same rough shape, or bezel, or frame, or dock connector, or packaging as an iPad. It's there because it has all of these things.

They can literally only lose if the court determines they were making a KIRF.

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by dhughes on Friday December 09, 2011 @12:50PM (#3334669)
I'm not a fanboy at all I use Windows, Linux, Apple, Android I'm not employed by 'company X' so unless they pay me I can criticize all I want.

From what I understand Apple refuses to pay Motorola royalties on the basic patent of a "hand-held mobile telephone radio" (or whatever phrase is used). If Apple refuses to pay for such a basic fundamental mobile phone patent how do they expect anyone to take them seriously for simple esthetics/design of a device?

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by billpatrianakos on Friday December 09, 2011 @01:28PM (#3334847)
It's not that simple. They don't need to pay Motorola to sue others. If we're speaking legally here then your argument has no legs. If we're talking realistically then you have a point but the courts will think that's irrelevant and make a decision based on the merits of this case regardless of any hypocrisy by Apple either real or perceived.

Now, speaking from a real world perspective and not about law, I'd say that the Motorola case is a lot like the Ford case. I'm the case of Ford you really can't stop others from making 4-wheeled, passenger carrying, combustion engine cars. There was just no other way at the time. Same for "hand-held mobile telephone radios". If Apple gets sued for such a generic technology then every cell phone and walki-talkie maker not paying Motorola royalties should too. In the case of Apple v Samsung, they aren't arguing that others can't make a tablet. You can easily make tablets that are similar (because even I will admit that nowadays there really isn't much more you can do with tablet design) and people have without infringing. But the Samsung tablet is so close to the iPad that its almost indistinguishable unless you inspect it further. It's like if someone made a project management web app and called it "OperatingBase" and it had all the features of Basecamp, a website with the same colors, similar logo, and all the rest. Well 37Signals couldn't sue the other project management app developers (let's pretend they have design patents in this case) but they sure can try to stop the asshole who is very obviously trying to rip off their product and ride its coat tails by hoping consumers who don't know better will think its the same exact thing.

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by pbhjpbhj on Friday December 09, 2011 @11:21AM (#3334256)
>protection against things that could be reasonably mistaken for them //

I'm going to guess you're misdescribing the law here as elsewise they could simply point out that the origin of the goods and hence their distinctiveness is clearly born out by the articles bearing the trademarks of the respective companies.

I know practically nothing of US (presumably this is the jurisdiction in question) Design Patents ... do you have a pointer to a primer (or just the USC), thanks.

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by hristov on Friday December 09, 2011 @03:05PM (#3335343)
"Arguments about obviousness are irrelevant under design patent law."

Where did you get that idea? Design patents are subject to the obviousness rules just like any other patent.

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by nl on Friday December 09, 2011 @06:42PM (#3336200)
IANAL, but "obviousness" isn't the same under design patents as under normal patents.

The design for a Coca Cola bottle is "obvious", but it is still protected.

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by wavephorm on Friday December 09, 2011 @10:08AM (#3333923)
The iPad is clearly derivative of just about every touchscreen UI shown in Star Trek Next Generation. The enterprise is plastered with them. Samsung should just show any episode of the show and count the number of devices that that are shown that look like an iPad.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by philwelch on Friday December 09, 2011 @03:17PM (#3335398)
No, it really isn't. The UI itself is totally different, with the TNG consoles using a fairly static button-based UI. Most of the PADD's had extraneous hardware buttons, and most of the touchscreens on the ship were not mounted on brushed aluminum roundrects, but rather spread across walls or mounted on consoles that certainly did not resemble the iPad. There weren't any obvious bezels, and the UI was completely different.

Mr. Worf's tactical consoles were mounted on a curved, wooden surface: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XNPD380IpBQ/S8aEN8erVEI/AAAAAAAAJo...

The conn and ops consoles were a solid piece of glass, and while the glass surface was a roundrect and there was a margin around the displayed interface, there wasn't any physical bezel, and the housing was triangular rather than iPad shaped: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XNPD380IpBQ/S8aD98o3EII/AAAAAAAAJn... http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XNPD380IpBQ/S8aD9MMAf3I/AAAAAAAAJn...

And the consoles in the back of the bridge were also dissimilar: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XNPD380IpBQ/S8aDvkLoPSI/AAAAAAAAJm...

The transporter consoles had triangular housings similar to the conn and ops consoles: http://starsmedia.ign.com/stars/image/article/850/850252/chi...

The only real similarity is that the TNG consoles were touchscreens. Everything else, software and hardware, is different.

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by Natsu on Friday December 09, 2011 @03:48PM (#3335544)
Well, the PADD designers there had little concern for function and a lot more interest in making the tech distinctive. I mean, you want Cardassian tech to look Cardassian. So minimalism wasn't what they were aiming for most of the time.

Even so, a few of the PADDs shown were more practical. In particular, take a look at these two PADDs:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Sarah_Sisko_reconstruct...

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:PADD_stylus_interface.j...

Between the two of them, they give you almost every design element except being black, depending on whether you think those things are buttons or that LCARS is clluttered or whatever.

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by philwelch on Friday December 09, 2011 @04:16PM (#3335651)
On both of those, the screen is physically depressed from the bezel like an etch-a-sketch, not flush like an iPad. They also have other extraneous design elements.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by Natsu on Friday December 09, 2011 @04:30PM (#3335707)
The red one is clearly inset, but I don't agree with you about the silver one. That one appears flush to me.

Maybe you can find another image of it or something and prove me wrong, but I can't seen an inset there.

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by philwelch on Friday December 09, 2011 @04:41PM (#3335757)
It looks maybe a millimeter inset if you look around the edges. Nonetheless, the plastic casing around the edges is pretty clearly extraneous.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by VladRussian on Friday December 09, 2011 @05:30PM (#3335945)
so we have an Apple supporter argueing that millimeter is enough of a difference to maintain originality, while several comments below another Apple supporter

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3334437

suggests that the home button was copied even though " They changed white square into a white rectangle and that's about it." So change of shape isn't enough to maintain originality.

In Russian we have a saying for such cases - "one's desire to climb up the pine without getting the one's ass poked/scratched by the needles".

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by philwelch on Friday December 09, 2011 @06:20PM (#3336120)
I don't know about Russians, but I don't function in a hive mind with others, even if we both like Apple products. So don't ask me to answer for another individual's arguments.

The difference between flush and inset is qualitative, and even conceding that point there are significant design differences.

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by Natsu on Saturday December 10, 2011 @02:47AM (#3337204)
I can't see any inset at all, though a better picture might be able to resolve that. I'm not sure what you mean by the casing being "extraneous" either. It seems to be quite plain, actually, at least on the one. That red one, though, is pretty ugly. Frankly, the stylus is the most obvious difference.

I guess, ultimately, I don't know what to say about all of this. Minimalism has been a trend for quite a while now, given how many products (including many of Apple's) that display it. Is Apple one of the trendsetters? Do they make beautiful products? Absolutely.

But all this patent silliness about getting each others' products banned has just got to stop. Every penny spent on it keeps them from hiring engineers to make something even better than what we have now. I don't like seeing Apple's products banned for using a Motorola standard any more than I like seeing the Galaxy Tab banned for being too minimalist. If they had any sense, they'd call off the lawyers and settle with each other before they waste any more money.

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by mkr-hn on Saturday December 10, 2011 @10:01AM (#3337664)
ST: Enterprise had a lot of iPad/iPhone-like devices.

I can't find any videos or pictures (the show predates easy sharing of video and images), but I remember some specific examples.

Thre first is the episode where the captain offends some very picky aliens who produce an essential component, so he has to perform a detailed ritual and uses an iPhone-like device for a reference.

The other was the episode where the crew became increasingly obsessed with minor activities due to some weird radiation, and the captain's obsession was a speech he was drafting on what looks like an iPad.

Generic Rectangle Device was also the standard thing for reports given to senior officers.

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by Duff on Friday December 09, 2011 @10:26AM (#3333991)
Issac Asimov described, in detail, humanoid and mechanical robots in books published 60 years ago.

So when somebody invents a similar robot, should they be unable to patent that invention?

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by ConstantineXVI on Friday December 09, 2011 @10:29AM (#3334008)
The physical design of a humanoid robot? No; Asimov's designs would constitute prior art (not to mention the existing real-world humanoid robots, or even humans themselves if you want to get existental). Any novel mechanical workings that make a humanoid robot possible would certainly be patentable, however.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by Symmetry on Friday December 09, 2011 @10:32AM (#3334021)
Yes, they certainly shouldn't! They can patent the inner working of the robot that they came up with, but they can't patent all possible humanoid robots, regardless of how they're implemented on the inside.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by wavephorm on Friday December 09, 2011 @10:45AM (#3334084)

  should they be unable to patent that invention
Of course not, they didn't invent anything.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by robterrell on Friday December 09, 2011 @10:33AM (#3334025)
Yeah, not so much. In fact, the opposite is true. Check the PADD links in one of the other comments on this thread (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/PADD) -- the PADD is chunky and exciting-looking for TV: non-symmetrical, off-center, with visually interesting buttons and do-dads. Looks more like an early Sony Reader or the 2005 Nokia tablet. Not at all minimalist, because that would look lame.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by ewoodrich on Friday December 09, 2011 @01:38PM (#3334902)
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by philwelch on Friday December 09, 2011 @03:19PM (#3335420)
That has a red case, the screen is physically depressed from the bezel, and there are extraneous white rectangular design elements on the bezel. That would actually not violate Apple's claims were it a real product.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by gujk on Friday December 09, 2011 @09:37PM (#3336713)
The red case is a smart cover.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by wavephorm on Friday December 09, 2011 @10:44AM (#3334077)
I was referring to more than their tablets.

The helm consoles are large flat touchscreens with black bezels and natural user interaction:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XNPD380IpBQ/S8jnaB-iM1I/AAAAAAAAJx...

The iPad is absolutely a small version of that device.

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by robterrell on Friday December 09, 2011 @11:33AM (#3334318)
Few of those panels actually displayed non-static images. Those that did were created using Macromedia Director running on large-screen Macs.

From http://www.trektoday.com/interviews/okuda_qa.shtml

The Okudas: The TNG panel graphics are intended to suggest something well-organized when a viewer sees them in the background of a scene. My advantage, of course, is that they are seldom seen closely, so I rarely have to take the time to figure out a panel in exact detail. As long as it looks credible on camera, I'm okay. This is extremely valuable, because it could easily require ten or fifty times as much time (and therefore labor and money) if I had to have all of the panels done in that kind of detail. The problem with actual software implementations of the style is that it requires far more than simply mimicking the colors and patterns. In order to work well, one has to analyze the tasks and the users' needs in great detail. This is something that the software industry in general does poorly, in my opinion. One also sees the same kinds of issues in things that should be well-understood, like VCR controls and TV remotes. They are all elegantly designed, but the users' needs are seldom adequately anticipated. On the show, I have the advantage that the viewer can assume that I've anticipated the crew's needs, simply because you can see how easy it is for the actors to use the controls.

The users needs are seldom adequately anticipated -- that does, in fact, sound like prior art for the Galaxy Tab.

I concede the point.

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by fluidcruft on Friday December 09, 2011 @12:15PM (#3334510)
If we're talking about the UI instead of the hardware, I don't remember any PADD interactions that involved pinching or dragging. They were always "tapping on buttons" from what I remember (but voice was a major UI element). But I don't know that any of that's really relevant to Apple's design patents.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by thebigshane on Friday December 09, 2011 @01:20PM (#3334807)
We are getting into a fairly geeky tangent here but I think some of the most memorable interactions involve dragging: the engineer at the transporter room controller and the ensign at flight control on the bridge. Both involve dragging some energy level upwards.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by Natsu on Friday December 09, 2011 @03:51PM (#3335548)
You had to swipe upwards to transport someone. I think they used two fingers to move that energy bar or whatever it was up to the top.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by bad_user on Friday December 09, 2011 @12:37PM (#3334612)
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by onemoreact on Friday December 09, 2011 @11:00AM (#3334153)
iPad have a single physical home button which those don't have and that's something that several manufactures coped. They could use 2 buttons on the same side or mirror the bottom button on the top or offset it from the center or add some lights or even simply change the edge color or add decorative divots in the outside corners etc. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:PADD_2150s.jpg

But instead of picking one of the trillions of other designs they used the iPad design because it sold well.e

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by thetrendycyborg on Friday December 09, 2011 @11:57AM (#3334437)
Which manufacturer copied the home button?
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by onemoreact on Friday December 09, 2011 @03:42PM (#3335521)
Samsung. They changed white square into a white rectangle and that's about it. Design patents are a low hurtle but they they could have at least used a circle/house/drooped the icon or something other than a box for home. I mean outside of the iOS reference what does a box / rectangle even mean?

http://www.phonearena.com/news/U.S.-version-of-Samsung-Galax...

And again, if they had two buttons and use a square for one of them then that's also fine. Or if it's an arrow that stands for play that's cool. But a white rectangle?

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by thetrendycyborg on Monday December 12, 2011 @11:42AM (#3344001)
The new Samsung phones have no buttons at all on the front. How's that for simplicity? Box means box. It's a rectangle. Apple can't patent the rectangle.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by onemoreact on Monday December 12, 2011 @12:45PM (#3344219)
Squares are rectangles. However, you will note that they changed the button format which suggests that they are they where treading a little close to Apple's design / long standing trend of having a single button. I still hate the fact that they use a single physical button to simulate more than one button based on how long you hold it down so IMO it's not really a benefit just an aesthetic choice.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by thetrendycyborg on Monday December 12, 2011 @03:46PM (#3344871)
Apple does the same sort of thing, but even more so. Tapping, holding, double tapping, triple tapping, tap and hold, etc. The home button is ridiculously overused, a consequence of less hardware holding more and more uses.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by VladRussian on Friday December 09, 2011 @03:57PM (#3335573)
>iPad have a single physical home button which those don't have and that's something that several manufactures coped. They could use 2 buttons on the same side or mirror the bottom button

sounds like why 1-click is patentable scheme of thinking.

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by billpatrianakos on Friday December 09, 2011 @03:25PM (#3335450)
Yes! Excellent point. We all have to admit that there's only so much you can do to differentiate a tablet but when the thing looks identical to the naked eye then you've got a case. The only problem is having to sell that in a court. There are tons of tablets out there that are very obviously not the iPad but this one from Samsung looks exactly the same on first glance especially to the average person.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by Natsu on Friday December 09, 2011 @03:55PM (#3335564)
The Galaxy Tab has two buttons on the side and no buttons on the front, just a tiny camera lens. One button is power, the other is a volume button (it's a single button that you can push on two different sides).

Maybe you're talking about a different product, but the Samsung tablet does not copy the iPad in that respect. I have one right in front of me right now.

Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by jbrennan on Friday December 09, 2011 @10:19AM (#3333962)
You know those weren't real devices right?
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by grannyg00se on Friday December 09, 2011 @10:25AM (#3333986)
In a discussion about design it doesn't matter, does it? We aren't talking about utility patents where the actual functionality and method to achieve it has to be described.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by vegardx on Friday December 09, 2011 @10:27AM (#3333994)
Why is this relevant? They portray a probable usecase, which 20 years or so later seem to become reality. They also show us that the idea of a user inferface like that is not necessarily something "new", but that, maybe, the technology wasn't there at that time. Now it is.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by jrockway on Friday December 09, 2011 @10:25AM (#3333985)
You can copy the design of a fake device just as easily as you can copy the design of a real device.
Re:The Crunchpad is proof of obviousness in iPad design by juiceandjuice on Friday December 09, 2011 @03:15PM (#3335385)
Apple's patent in 2005 was for a device that didn't exist.