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Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by Ayesh on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @05:28AM (#33328230)
Yeah I don't even know if that upper post was meant to be sarcastic. Telegram, despite the security theater, is amazing UX-wise. It's such a joy to use and I see myself more and more engaging with Telegram contacts just because it's convenient in many subtle yet impactful ways.
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by rglullis on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @05:31AM (#33328255)
You can improve the UX of Matrix clients. You can not make Telegram decentralized or take it out of control of one single entity.
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by Ayesh on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @05:38AM (#33328295)
Honest question, is there are Matrix client that has a decent amount of UX work gone into it? I recently started to use Fluffy, that looks pretty good with a nice clean design, but does not have the same level of polish as Telegram, at least not yet. It's open source and one should try to contribute and not complain, that I figure, but not everyone can contribute in the first place.
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by Arathorn on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @05:42AM (#33328328)
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by gausswho on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @10:50AM (#33331232)
Please let me hide the 'Home' and Spaces sidebar in web Element. I have no interest for it and it's an egregious waste of space.
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by weissbier on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @05:47AM (#33328352)
If you don't mind that it's web based, try Cinny: https://cinny.in
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by mritzmann on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @05:34AM (#33328271)
> You can improve the UX of Matrix clients

No. Most people can't do that (because not everyone is a software developer).

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by Spacemolte on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @05:57AM (#33328403)
I don't think he means you, or the users that needs this, but instead that it is possible to do if they are open source.
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by rglullis on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @06:05AM (#33328468)
I'm always befuddled by how some people really take things so literally...
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by spockz on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @06:22AM (#33328571)
Indeed. That is why I started using “one could” instead of “you can”. This prevented a lot of misunderstanding.
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by uptown on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @07:45AM (#33329225)
How can you possibly expect ONE person to do all of this? /s
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by DocTomoe on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @08:07AM (#33329403)
I have been discouraged to use that form because native English speakers have corrected me that unless I am a British monarch, it would be incorrect language use.
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by cyphar on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @08:51AM (#33329793)
Maybe I'm missing a joke, but this is not the case unless you're using "one" as a way of referring to yourself. Saying "one could" to mean "someone could" is perfectly standard English.
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by mbg721 on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:15AM (#33330046)
One does have to be a little careful with that... It's generally old-fashioned, and can end up sounding sarcastic or passive-aggressive if the statement is obviously meant to refer to a particular person. (Cf. the upper-Midwestern "a guy could" or "a lotta guys", as in "A lotta guys would have made sure that was tied to the roof of the car before they drove off.")
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by sanitycheck on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @08:59AM (#33329873)
If one were to use it to refer to oneself, then one might be royalty. Otherwise, one may do as one likes!
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by OJFord on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @07:08AM (#33328917)
It must be exhausting never to take a break from befuddlement, you really ought to consider only feeling this way some of the time, or at least spend some time befuddled by other things.
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by rglullis on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @07:16AM (#33328996)
If this were reddit, I'd upvote you. ;)
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by KMnO4 on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:52AM (#33330461)
The point is that “it’s open source” is a really bad selling point when you’re talking about a messaging tool meant to be used by everyone.

Good luck trying to convince the general population that “the UX is bad but theoretically anyone can improve it” is better than what you get out of the box with other messengers.

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by rglullis on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @10:23AM (#33330851)
You don't need to convince "the general population" to switch. You don't even need to convince anyone to "switch".

Just do the change yourself. Help those people close to you to install Element alongside whatever they are using now. Even if just because they are using to talk with you, it's better than nothing.

You don't get to migrate things that are on huge network effects in one go. But we can help the growth of one network organically until it reaches critical mass.

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by ajsnigrutin on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @10:34AM (#33330998)
But other people don't install element alongside whatever (except maybe your parents), but they continue using what works for them... Are you really so "special", you can convince all of your friends with "I know all your friends are using app X, but if you want to chat with me, you need app Y, which noone else is using right now, but maybe, some day..."?
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by rglullis on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @10:46AM (#33331160)
Not all, but the ones that mattered and bothered, yes.

I am not asking them to delete the other app, I am not asking them to join a religion. I am just asking them (and helping if necessary) to install an app and set up an account on my server.

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by nikitaga on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @07:16AM (#33328991)
Well if you can, then why aren't they as good as Telegram, and why should I be holding my breath for their UI / UX to suddenly improve? Matrix has been around for almost as long as Telegram.

I don't use either so I don't really care. I just don't expect a consumer service with subpar UI to win market share solely on technical merits.

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by rglullis on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @07:20AM (#33329028)
> I don't use either so I don't really care.

That you don't care about open source and your freedoms is a good data point to help explain why open source projects lag behind proprietary ones.

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by smallerfish on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @07:58AM (#33329338)
Not OP, but that's not a fair statement.

Checking the box of ideals doesn't mean that open source software is off the hook in having to compete on features. Regular users do not give a rat's ass about source code being open; it's an extremely abstract concept if you're not in the field. All they care about is free as in beer. Matrix can either target the niche demographic of the highly technical, or it needs to level up on usability to reach a wide audience.

The number of people who have tried LibreOffice, Gimp, etc is probably orders of magnitude higher than the number of actual daily users. If these software applications were businesses, their exec teams would have been fired many times over for the atrocious churn. Free as in beer is an excellent foot in the door, but it's wasted time and again by huffy developers who don't know how to create good UX and who won't open the door to good product people who want to help out.

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by rglullis on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @08:22AM (#33329530)
> Checking the box of ideals doesn't mean that open source software is off the hook in having to compete on features.

No one said that.

> Regular users do not give a rat's ass about source code being open

Open source or not, they should care about reliability, avoiding lock-in, abusive practices from monopolistic players, privacy...

> If these software applications were businesses, their exec teams would have been fired many times over for the atrocious churn.

If these applications were business, you'd also have to look at Cost of Customer Acquisition, at how much is being spent on marketing, you'd also have to see how much your developer team is being compensated, how much they are getting in shares, etc.

If the investment is zero, the ROI from FOSS will be by definition infinitely superior to closed solutions.

What I am trying to say is: TANSTAAFL. OP's seems to not care about his freedoms, so he is willing (like many others) to trade it away for the convenience brought by closed solutions. So it is no surprise that a FOSS project (which has no way to monetize the user to finance its development) will lag behind. This will only change when people start covering some of this difference and start supporting FOSS projects directly.

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by throwamon on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @08:34AM (#33329638)
> they should care about [...]

And there's your problem. Regular users do not give a rat's ass about your shoulds. In addition, for example, I've never seen any serious UX bugs in Telegram, and I've seen many in Element. Regular users care waaay more about that than some vague notion of "reliability".

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by rglullis on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @08:42AM (#33329704)
> your shoulds

They are not mine.

It's not my data that is being mined and it's not my business that can disappear if WhatsApp goes offline.

Yeah, I'm fully aware that people generally don't care about any of that. Lots of people also don't care about their eating habits, the effects of their economic actions, etc, etc. But if they don't want to face the bad consequences of their choices, they should.

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by white_dragon88 on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:26AM (#33330168)
Therefore the idea will continue to flounder indefinitely, used by a microscopically small user base representing a microscopically small niche of the market. In effect it doesn’t exist and has negligible impact on the bigger picture. But at least you get to feel like you did the right thing, right?
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by rglullis on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:44AM (#33330359)
> Therefore the idea will continue to flounder indefinitely, used by a microscopically small user base.

I have no control over what others do. The only power I have is over my own choices.

> But at least you get to feel like you did the right thing, right?

I am more concerned about not doing the wrong thing (if I can avoid it) then any display of righteousness.

In the case, no one is forcing me to use WhatsApp, so if I can avoid being a participant in something that I believe to be hurtful to me and others, I will. The inconvenience is a small price to pay.

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by TheOtherHobbes on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:56AM (#33330514)
Just as FOSS should produce high quality, usable, popular, free software.

But it doesn't.

Your shoulds look an awful lot like a tribal affectation which the FOSS community uses to exclude non-technical users.

It doesn't matter if the exclusion is conscious (I suspect it isn't) or deliberate (likewise.)

The point is the exclusion happens. Self-evidently and empirically. Outside of the technical community FOSS might as well not exist.

If you actually want people to use FOSS you need to stop shoulding potential users and start making software that satisfies their needs in obvious and delightful ways.

Security and privacy are important but secondary features.

And access to source code trails at the end of the list. It's of zero interest - and even less use - to non-technical users.

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by rglullis on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @10:05AM (#33330620)
> which the FOSS community uses to exclude non-technical users.

Sorry, that is bullshit. Any FOSS enthusiast will gladly help other people, when there is a clear path to make the change. When I told my friends and family "I am not going to use WhatsApp anymore, but there is this program that we use instead", I went to help all of them that were interested. I didn't force them to choose between Element or WhatsApp, I just said "here is one alternative."

> Just as FOSS should produce high quality, usable, popular, free software.

I can bet FOSS beats proprietary solutions on any class on a dollar-per-unit-of-quality and even dollar-per-user-acquired metric.

> If you actually want people to use FOSS you need to stop shoulding potential users and start making software that satisfies their needs in obvious and delightful ways.

Everyone wants an unicorn. No one wants to pay for it. If we want developers to work on FOSS projects, we need to foment a marketplace that rewards FOSS developers.

"Oh, but I don't care about FOSS. I care about getting things done, or less inconveniences, etc"

Fine, then enjoy your shit sandwich that is called "Big Tech".

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by oakpond on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:12AM (#33330014)
I think you're right, but perhaps more aggressive marketing already helps a lot.

I'm not a marketing person, but for example, take advantage of these kind of events to let people know that Matrix's network is impossible to go down like this because it works like e-mail.

Reiterate the point that Whatsapp is part of Facebook's network. So, your Whatsapp account is under Facebook's control just like your Facebook account. Matrix accounts work like e-mail addresses. You choose a provider for your account, and you can always choose a different one without losing access to the network.

Present these kinds of talking points to the actual mainstream. Advertise on Youtube, go on TV... maybe people care less about the UX than we think.

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by rakoo on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @12:25PM (#33332740)
It won't surprise you that to improve a product, you need people working on it. In a capitalistic society you need to pay them to do that. Telegram sits on the billions of its founders and doesn't need to make revenue, they have money. What company with an infinite supply of money (and, thus, developers, managers, QA, interviewers) are building a Matrix client and can afford to have as many people working in it ?
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by Arathorn on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @12:44PM (#33333026)
Element funds a lot of Matrix work, and we have a large team working on both Matrix, Element clients, Matrix hosting, and our various customer projects (around 100 people). And while Element has taken longer than I’d like to improve in terms of UI/UX, it is definitely getting there - cf https://element.io/blog/an-unrecognisable-improvement-elemen... etc.
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by rakoo on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @05:05PM (#33336179)
Oh, I didn't mean to say no one is working on the Matrix ecosystem. The reason Matrix is where it is today is thanks to you guys. But I don't think you can say you have as many resources and as many people working on it as Telegram, and you're solving a problem 10x more difficult than what Telegram does.
Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by nikitaga on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @07:12PM (#33337488)
Of course, I see that. But open source projects routinely manage to meet technical expectations while failing specifically at meeting UI / UX expectations.

That makes sense for unfunded projects because most developers are not good designers, and designers don't have a culture of contributing to open source, but for a project that pays (some of) its developers, it's their choice how much to pay developers vs designers vs managers, and they are responsible for the way in which they allocate their limited resources.

I recently had to move my open source project's chat from Gitter to Discord, not because we like Discord or "don't care about open source" but because everyone is so damn tired of Gitter's terrible UX that it became the overriding concern.

Matrix bought Gitter two years ago, and I kept waiting, hoping that they would improve it, but they did literally nothing to it except connect it to Matrix within a couple months – and even that doesn't work well, with Matrix users still unable to respond in threads.

I assume there is a good reason for that. I'm not here to judge, only to point out that this "good reason", whether it's lack of funding or priorities or whatever – won't change anytime soon, so I won't be holding my breath anymore.

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by Arathorn on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @04:43AM (#33341231)
> I assume there is a good reason for that.

We spelt out the good reason in the original blog post: https://matrix.org/blog/2020/09/30/welcoming-gitter-to-matri...

> However: in the medium/long term, it’s simply not going to be efficient for the combined Element/Gitter team to split our efforts maintaining two high-profile Matrix clients. Our plan is instead to merge Gitter’s features into Element (or next generations of Element) itself and then - if and only if Element has achieved parity with Gitter based on the above list - we expect to upgrade the deployment on gitter.im to a Gitter-customised version of Element. The inevitable side-effect is that we’ll be adding new features to Element rather than Gitter going forwards.

We’re almost at the point of being able to switch Gitter over to being a branded Element.

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by gtirloni on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @07:50AM (#33329274)
> You can improve the UX of Matrix clients

Apparently, that has not been a priority in many years.

Matrix/Element is so far behind usability/features that it's really only used by people that favor decentralization/openess at the expense of actual users.

Re:WhatsApp goes down for users globally by gorgoiler on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:12AM (#33330010)
The paradox is that if you have the skillset to improve the Matrix UX, you’re probably off doing something else for 10x the impact.