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Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by lupire on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:04AM (#33287116)
Disproving some form of measurable wave function does not provide evidence for MWI, which is unmeasurable and untestable nearly by definition.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by fallingfrog on Friday October 21, 2022 @10:55AM (#33288643)
Well, the thing is that the MWI is actually simpler than all the other interpretations, because it simply removes the idea of wave function collapse entirely. Any theory involving wave function collapse is adding something extra to quantum physics that can't be demonstrated experimentally.

Because we live in the macro world, it feels like a single unitary reality is simpler, but actually, the MWI makes fewer assumptions. So I would turn that around and put the burden on the other theories to show that collapse is real, the default position should be MWI.

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by tsimionescu on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:59AM (#33289459)
It is not simpler, since MWI still needs the Born postulate to actually predict the results of quantum experiments. It replaces this idea of the wave function collapsing with a redefinition of what a measurement apparatus / observer is (in MWI, a measurement apparatus exists in a single "branch" of the wave function).

This is especially problematic because QM doesn't predict any particular decomposition of a quantum state into particular classical states. That is, the Schrodinger equation doesn't actually predict that a particle has some amplitude here and some other amplitude there, as is often presented; instead, it predicts that it is described by some vector which can be decomposed in many different ways. You can say it has some amplitude X here and some amplitude Y there, but with any 2 points in space-time (adjusting the amplitudes). Or, it can have some combination of position and spin with amplitude X, and some other combination of position and spin with amplitude Y. You can choose any basis you like for the measurement, and you will get the corresponding answer.

But, for MWI to actually predict experimental results (and the classical world we live in) you not only have to choose to look at a single element of that basis, but you also have to believe that the classical basis is somehow preferred.

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by GoblinSlayer on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:21PM (#33289755)
>This is especially problematic because QM doesn't predict any particular decomposition of a quantum state into particular classical states.

It does predict it, this decomposition is called decoherence, where a classical state splits into a superposition of several different classical states.

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by pdonis on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:30PM (#33289892)
> this decomposition is called decoherence, where a classical state splits into a superposition of several different classical states.

No, that's not what decoherence is. Decoherence is the spread of entanglement over a very large number of untrackable degrees of freedom (usually referred to as the "environment"). This makes interference effects unobservable. But decoherence itself does not involve any "splitting"; the entanglement that decoherence spreads over a very large number of untrackable degrees of freedom has to already be there before decoherence can act on it.

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by GoblinSlayer on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:04PM (#33291105)
AFAIK the largest molecule to show quantum behavior in experiments is somewhere at 100 atoms. I suppose that's all "environment" you need for a large number of degrees of freedom.

And yes, spread of entanglement does mean splitting. Entangled state is not factorizable, because all states in it are split. This splitting is the result of splitting of the initial state.

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by pdonis on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:36PM (#33291507)
> I suppose that's all "environment" you need for a large number of degrees of freedom.

No. The 100 atoms is the largest molecule that we can do experiments on without having decoherence happen and ruining our attempts to observe interference.

The number of degrees of freedom in the environment is many orders of magnitude larger, something like 10^30 or more for a typical experiment.

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by TheOtherHobbes on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:38AM (#33289161)
You don't think postulating an unknown number of extra universes with a very poorly defined relationship with each other qualifies as an extra assumption?
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by pdonis on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:32PM (#33289922)
The MWI does not postulate extra universes, although that pop science description is unfortunately common even though it is wrong. The MWI just says that the one universe that exists is actually very, very different from what we perceive. (To be clear, I'm not saying this correct description makes the MWI any more palatable. I am just clarifying exactly what kind of unpalatableness the MWI requires.)
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by ryeights on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:20PM (#33291311)
Can you elaborate on this? The Wikipedia page for MWI says

>The many-worlds interpretation implies that there are most likely an uncountably infinite number of universes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by pdonis on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:35PM (#33291493)
One should not be trying to learn physics from Wikipedia, particularly not for something as complicated as QM, even more particularly not for an aspect of QM as contentious as the MWI.

The MWI says that there is one single universal wave function, which evolves in time by unitary evolution forever. That is one universe, not an infinity of them. It is just one universe that is nothing like what we think we perceive.

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by jamiek88 on Saturday October 22, 2022 @02:55AM (#33296132)
Your last paragraph is verbatim gonna be the ‘Lord’s Prayer’ of my space cult.

Wanna join? You can be number 2 thus have second dibs at the buffet.

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by GoblinSlayer on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:33PM (#33291463)
Those worlds are states in superposition, the term "world" is an allegory to help people understand that those states don't interact due to linearity of the Schrodinger equation, because not all properties of linearity are obvious.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by d_tr on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:42PM (#33291574)
Not the parent, but I 'd say this amounts to how you define a "universe". There is a single wavefunction which says that one "copy" of you observes result A and another "copy" observes result B. Using the phrase "many universes" implies that these two scenarios are considered as "different universes". I personally do not like this phrase and find it misleading.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by TEP_Kim_Il_Sung on Friday October 21, 2022 @03:34PM (#33292151)
You are all the "copies", and, under certain conditions, can experience all their observations. Think of yourself more as an aspect of a multifaceted being experiencing the universe through you.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by pdonis on Friday October 21, 2022 @05:17PM (#33293138)
> under certain conditions, can experience all their observations

What conditions are these?

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by TEP_Kim_Il_Sung on Saturday October 22, 2022 @01:08AM (#33295793)
Practice lucid dreaming, so you can maintain a semi-awake meditative state. Practice remembering your dreams -some of them are memories from other aspects like you, others are your subconscious communicating through symbols and situations. Practice asking questions, dreaming, and remembering. Practice reaching the semi-awake meditative state from the awakened end of your day. Realize, what you think of as your body, is the 4D sensory organ of your hyperdimensional self, maintain meditative state, and open your other eyes. The effect is a lot like the collage view of regular stereoscopic vision, except out of the immediate overton-window of aspects of yourself similar enough to you.

Getting to that point can take several years. A quicker option seem to be drugs, based on conversations I had with friends, but I never wanted to artificially taint my perception, so I did it the hard way. My findings are that while there is no fate, there exist enough aspects in universes similar enough to yours, but perhaps chronically shifted, that you can learn from their mistakes. This is known as instinct, "guardian angels", premonition, deja-vue, etc. Good luck.

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by stubish on Saturday October 22, 2022 @10:40PM (#33304093)
If you can receive information from alternative universes, experiments can be devised to prove this, and would indeed answer a great many questions in quantum physics. Physicists and others interested in the field would be extremely grateful. As would cogitative scientists and statisticians, who would need to adjust their experimentally demonstrated explanations for instinct, "guardian angels", premonitions, deja-vue etc.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by olddustytrail on Friday October 21, 2022 @03:04PM (#33291832)
Let's say we generally subscribed to the flat earth theory. But that causes many problems with our actual measurements. So someone proposes the "many earths" theory, where there are many flat earths connected at different angles.

If you could travel between these many earths, you could even end up in one - let's call this mythical land "Australia" - where South was up!

Sounds a bit crazy but some people believe it could really exist.

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by GoblinSlayer on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:29PM (#33291409)
We perceived flat earth and geocentrism, so not the first time. I can recommend quantum electrodynamics to people who are too attached to corpuscular paradigm.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by kgwgk on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:59PM (#33291774)
"The MWI" is not one thing. There are many-people saying many-things about those many-worls.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by d_tr on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:13PM (#33291205)
It is the other way around. The universes are there when you solve the equations, and you can either let them be or keep only one by invoking the collapse.

The collapse amounts to just setting some terms to zero.

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by lamontcg on Friday October 21, 2022 @03:00PM (#33291797)
> Any theory involving wave function collapse is adding something extra to quantum physics that can't be demonstrated experimentally.

Title article is literally about trying to test those theories experimentally.

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by fallingfrog on Friday October 21, 2022 @03:15PM (#33291970)
..And failing to find any evidence of collapse. Hence "can't be demonstrated". I didn't mean "can't be looked for" I meant that attempts to find it have not been successful.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by sfink on Friday October 21, 2022 @03:20PM (#33292009)
Only to the extent that MWI is actually a position. My understanding of MWI is: shit happens, and there's no need to understand why specific shit happens because all shit "happens" (by a definition of "happens" that carries basically no meaning) and you should be happy just to prove that the shit that happens is among the full set of shit that could happen. It's the "don't worry your pretty little head over it" theory of reality.

Here's the best poem ever written, or that will ever be written:

    Roses are red
    Violets are blue
    MWI stinks
    And so do you.
Don't think it's that great? Well, that's because there exist other versions of me that wrote different words up there, and you just happened to read a version that wasn't that great.

I hereby accept my position as God Poet of the Universe.

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by GoblinSlayer on Friday October 21, 2022 @03:56PM (#33292385)
Shit happens because that's how the state of matter changes over time, the wave function is the description of the state and the Schrodinger equation is the description of the state's change. That's as complete and happy understanding as it goes.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by c1ccccc1 on Friday October 21, 2022 @05:25PM (#33293202)
Wait, I'm pretty sure that if these measurements had shown a collapse, that would have to be taken as disproving many worlds. You can't very well have many worlds when your wavefunction is physically collapsing all the time before those worlds can diverge. So it is actually kind of testable, since a test was just performed that could have ruled it out. Maybe you're saying that it's untestable relative to unmeasurable collapses of the wavefunction. But if those collapses are contrived to be unmeasurable, doesn't that make them kind of, well, pointless?
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by Diggsey on Friday October 21, 2022 @06:29PM (#33293670)
Only if you assert that the other worlds are in some way "real". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation#Deb...

The MWI is a simpler theory than other interpretations because it does not require "collapse" to be a physical process. The "realness" of the other worlds is untestable, but also not part of the theory.

"unreal" MWI should be the null hypothesis given what we know to be true about quantum mechanics. If we find evidence that collapse is a physical process then we can reject it, but otherwise it makes the fewest leaps. At the moment the Copenhagen intepretation is taught instead, which is a problem. To quote wikipedia:

> There is no uniquely definitive statement of the Copenhagen interpretation

And

> the device used to observe a system must be described in classical language, while the system under observation is treated in quantum terms

In other words, it does allow you to predict the result of an experiment, but we know it can't be right because it's impossible to formalize without building this "classical observer" into the model. Attempting to build on this inevitably leads to metaphysical nonsense about consciousness.

In "unreal" MWI there is a universal wave function, and something is "real" to us if it is entangled with us. The "many worlds" terminology makes it easier to visualize but doesn't mean those other worlds are real because whether something is real is subjective in this interpretation. Subjective reality may be a problem for some people, but if you look at the evolution of physical theories, we consistently find that everything is more subjective than we thought it was (see also: relativity).

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by platz on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:29PM (#33294419)
Believers in Everett may not end up being right. But believers in Copenhagen aren't more right than believers in Everett. In fact, they "aren't even wrong" either, because they refuse to even engage with the question. So I think it's like the situation with democracy. You have to go with Everett until you find something better, providing you want to be scientific at all.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by eterevsky on Saturday October 22, 2022 @05:13AM (#33296699)
MWI in a sense it a null theory regarding the collapse, so it should be assumed true by default if collapse is not observed.