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Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by abeppu on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @09:29AM (#33261823)
Before the pandemic and surge of remote work, a lot of us complained not just about going to the office, but that the office itself was pretty crappy. The open plan creates an environment of high distraction, low privacy, and physical discomfort. Whether or not people wanted to listen to music or anything for hours at a time, they were pushed to do it just to drown out a constant background noise of words that are highly salient in your problem domain. You're probably constrained to the desk or chair set up that your office manager picked. The bottom line is you're spending a lot of time in an environment about which you may have zero input or control.

At home, I can work in silence if I want. If I want background noise, I can play music on a stereo or turn on the TV in the next room. When my back hurts, I can lie down on the sofa, or stretch and foam roll in a way which would be conspicuous in the office. I can be barefoot all day if I want. I can snack on the food that I like enough to buy, without broadcasting the pretention of bringing my own food to the micro kitchen. I can eat healthier lunches than the office catered food. Even without considering commuting, or the amount of time spent in synchronous interactions, just being able to control my own space is sooo much more comfortable. I injured my back this year, and taking care of it has been so much easier at home than it would have been in open plan hell.

A bunch of that stuff is nominally compatible with being "in the office" -- just give me a private office, with real walls, the ability to buy my own furniture, etc. But tech long ago decided that engineers get cubicles or open plan desks, that the way you know we're working is it see that we're looking at screens rather than seeing our actual output, that a clean modern spaceship aesthetic is more important than workers being able to control or customize their workspace. Is it that we don't value the office, or that the office has been created by people who don't value us?

Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by organsnyder on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @09:46AM (#33262056)
Exactly this. My last in-office job was an open floorplan where I had over fifty colleagues in my direct line-of-sight. The only conversations that took place in the open office were about sports or Game of Thrones—real work conversations happened in conference rooms (when they were available). One team decided to turn a small open area near my desk into their own "conference room", but the rollable whiteboards they used as "walls" didn't block any sound, especially from their speakerphone.
Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by abeppu on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @09:49AM (#33262101)
Or I guess to make it slightly more explicit:

- prior to the pandemic and the surge in remote work, people were already talking about how offices are set up in a way which can be unnecessarily miserable, but crams more people in the same space, minimizing real estate cost per head.

- but even though in my city, there's now a giant glut of vacant commercial office space, I've yet to see a single company make the pitch: we'll give you a private office if you come in to work face to face.

- things become clearer if we frame this using a term with some history: working conditions. White-collar workers that have never unionized are now pushing for greater control of their working conditions. A partial list of grievances has been a subject of public discussion for years. Some employers are willing to deal with remote work as a bundled solution to multiple issues, but so far I've seen no employers who are willing to meaningfully compromise on what the office looks like.

Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by personalidea on Thursday October 20, 2022 @02:40PM (#33278858)
The place I am working at has an online booking system for all the desks available the entire office building (~14 floors) and while there are no private one person rooms, the offices are 4-8 seats and there is enough vacancies to find a quiet spot. Plus you get to know people from different departments by sitting in different areas of the building.

Works pretty well. On top, my team could decide to only have a presence day every two weeks and we have that as a meetings day where there is no expectation to write code or do focused work but socialize.

I found that this I am in favor of a hybrid setup like this. For the reasons stated in the post, I really do like coming together in person and at the same time I am a parent that appreciates the time saved when working remote from home most days.

Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by spelunker on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @01:25PM (#33265256)
Our team has decided to go in one day a week, and one day a week I am reminded why open work environments are awful. Mostly-remote work actually made it worse because there are multiple people near me who are now in wall-to-wall virtual meetings all day and just take them at their desk!
Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by skirmish on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @09:23PM (#33269829)
Indeed. I noticed my hearing was getting worse since in office I kept increasing music volume in (futile) attempts to block out chatterboxes at the next desk. Destroying your health is not worth whatever faster promotions in-office work promises.
Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by hkxer on Thursday October 20, 2022 @01:40AM (#33271215)
Noise canceling headphones?
Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by jjav on Thursday October 20, 2022 @02:49AM (#33271588)
Noise canceling headphones don't do anything against human voices, which is the noise problem in open offices.
Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by collyw on Thursday October 20, 2022 @10:39AM (#33275400)
Get some of the muffler things for building sites. One of my previous workspaces had a couple of these siting around.
Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by ManlyBread on Friday October 21, 2022 @03:49AM (#33285597)
That's not really something I'd consider to be a perk of that office...
Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by ornornor on Thursday October 27, 2022 @01:23AM (#33353453)
A colleague of mine used them at a previous job.

I started wearing them too because they work well but also as a passive aggressive FU to whoever designed these open office floor plans (the ear protectors are usually bright colors like yellow so there is no mistaking them for headphones)

We’re treated like assembly line workers in more and more companies anyway so why not also start wearing the PPE that goes with it?

Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by beaugunderson on Sunday October 23, 2022 @11:29PM (#33312680)
I have a pair of Sony wh-1000xm3 and wh-1000xm5 and they definitely block out human voices, for me at least.
Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by sinancan2 on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @11:59AM (#33332376)
they may reduce it to some extent, but not completely block it.
Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by beaugunderson on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @04:29PM (#33335728)
As it was a statement of my experience, I will reiterate it to make it clearer--they do block outside voices for me, completely.
Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by quickthrower2 on Thursday October 20, 2022 @04:40AM (#33272179)
Some earplug and chuck white noise on top is what I did once. My issue is it is uncomfortable.
Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by MiddleEndian on Thursday October 20, 2022 @01:36PM (#33278026)
I've spent so much time wearing headphones in offices that I find headphones to be physically uncomfortable.
Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by haho4 on Thursday October 20, 2022 @09:10AM (#33274142)
Open Office, 1 hour commute each way in crappy transportation. No thank you.
Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by collyw on Thursday October 20, 2022 @10:38AM (#33275379)
I find communication over messenger apps at least as distracting as the office.
Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by Zedronar on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:31AM (#33287807)
There are usually ways for you as a user to customize these apps and make them less distracting (e.g. "Settings -> Notifications", etc).
Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by nikau on Saturday October 22, 2022 @07:18AM (#33297323)
Plus that lazy category of people who seek help without even trying can be ignored for a few hours, and when you reply its usually "oh yeah i figured it out"
Re:Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote wor... by recursive_ on Thursday October 20, 2022 @01:01PM (#33277559)
Well summarized. I think a lot of people forget how anti-productive many working environments were before the pandemic.

My employer at the time had us working in a retrofitted warehouse as software developers. Huge sprawling floor plans with cubicle farms thrown in. The sound acoustics of the building, lighting (sky lights mixed with arrays of fluorescent lights), and the shear amount of people walking around my desk made it nearly impossible to stay focused for any reasonable amount of time. This forced nearly all of us to use noise cancelling headphones which in turn killed any sort of social aspect of being in office.