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Re:Intel and the $1.5trn chip industry meltdown by throwawaylinux on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @09:19AM (#33246678)
DUV seems to be economical down to about 7nm though.
Re:Intel and the $1.5trn chip industry meltdown by kuschku on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @09:35AM (#33246884)
From what Intel put out in marketing materials, even at 14nm they had a very unreliable process with DUV. So, it might not be economical for the type of IC produced in these factories.
Re:Intel and the $1.5trn chip industry meltdown by sylware on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @10:52AM (#33248138)
So it means that chinese SMIC announced '7nm' implies they have EUV working?
Re:Intel and the $1.5trn chip industry meltdown by Sakos on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @11:19AM (#33248624)
No, they don't have EUV. They have 7nm which they're doing with DUV, but they're hitting the same issues Intel did with abysmal yields and there's no guarantee that SMIC will be able to solve something Intel was never able to.
Re:Intel and the $1.5trn chip industry meltdown by sylware on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @01:26PM (#33250921)
... unless they jump onto the EUV train. That said heard that japan may come back as a top-notch silicium country with... nanoimprint?!
Re:Intel and the $1.5trn chip industry meltdown by ohazi on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @07:25PM (#33255460)
They're sanctioned, they can't just "jump"
Re:Intel and the $1.5trn chip industry meltdown by sylware on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @09:02PM (#33256138)
come on... ofc they would have to do the whole R&D.
Re:Intel and the $1.5trn chip industry meltdown by kamaal on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @01:38AM (#33258177)
They do have EUV machines, albeit unreliable. Like you yourself mentioned the yields are the problem here.

This is really more of an engineering problem, you need more cycles for quality and reliability. But it's not something unsurmountable. Intel had no reason to try hard enough, Intel is never going to get sanctioned.

'Necessity is the mother of all innovation' might come to play here. If it comes down to living vs dying, people go to no ends to make things happen.

Re:Intel and the $1.5trn chip industry meltdown by sc0ttyd on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @11:50AM (#33263939)
Source? I've not seen anything _anywhere_ about anyone other than ASML producing EUV lithography tools. DUV yes, but not EUV
Re:Intel and the $1.5trn chip industry meltdown by me_me_me on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @01:05PM (#33250582)
I am announcing 1nm chip rihht here right now! Trust me I wouldn't lie.

The nm measure is a marketing tool. Intel nm is 'larger' because they were measuring gates differently.

I only take nm claims as comparison of products of same company.

Re:Intel and the $1.5trn chip industry meltdown by throwawaylinux on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @06:03PM (#33254657)
TSMC (and Intel) use DUV for their 7nm.

TSMC's DUV 7 processes are reportedly very good.

And I thought Intel's 14 was good too (after some ramping), which is why they stayed on it and iterated on it for so long, it was the 10nm process they had so much trouble with and the problems there are not generally reported to be with lithography but materials (cobalt, among other things, which they dropped in later nodes).

So I'm not sure what you are trying to argue. DUV has _proven_ to be economical down to about 7nm.