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Re:Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of a... by mickdeek86 on Friday October 14, 2022 @08:33PM (#33210401)
I work in the Alaska fishery and am typing this while sat in one of the largest fish processing facilities in the western hemisphere. I have the spare time because, well, there's no crabs coming in and everything else is mostly out of season. About half of the boats on Discovery belong to the company I work for, the largest in the US. So I'll take the opportunity to share some on-the-ground observations.

Overfishing: It's not this. A billion crabs is north of 5 billion pounds, in other words on the order of 100x the US crabbing fleet's capability. I would hazard to guess there isn't enough crabbing gear on the planet earth to have achieved that catch.

Foreign fleets: If this is the case, the real bad news is that the Rusky's and/or Chinese have developed cloaking device technology.

Trawling: We're talking about the bottom-scrapers. They're new on the scene relative to the crabbers. Alaska allows 4 1/3 million crabs as bycatch (waste), amounting to ~20 million pounds, which would be a decent annual catch. Even though this is thought to interfere specifically with breeding grounds, it isn't enough to have caused this depopulation event. It's more than enough to piss of the crabbers though, since it actually is unfair.

Disease: Is there a precedent in Earth's natural history of a 90% die-off in two years due to disease? We might have to go back to the meteor that killed the dinosaurs. Which brings us to:

Climate change: There was a similar depopulation event in the early 80s. 1980 still holds the annual catch record at 200 million pounds (~40 million animals), a sustained harvest without noticeable impact on the stock. The waters warmed, population (and yield) suddenly tanked on a similar scale, and never recovered to anywhere near those levels. The basic ecological dynamic of a fishery is this: deep, cold, nutrient-rich waters are pushed by a current into a steep continental shelf, forcing them toward the surface where it fertilizes plankton, the foundation of sea life. The volcanic Aleutian archipelago is such a place, another notable one is Peru's fishery. A change in sea temperature can effect this dynamic, in addition to the breeding and general survival of crabs.

However long it takes for the stock to recover (probably a long time, even if the environmental conditions do return to favorable), one outcome is almost a foregone conclusion: independent crabbers will have be forced out, and only the larger companies, with deeper pockets and more diversified across fish species, will survive, leading to another round of conglomeration.

Re:Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of a... by sdenton4 on Friday October 14, 2022 @08:45PM (#33210460)
Any chance that trawling caused significant decline due to habitat damage, regardless of actual by catch tonnage?
Re:Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of a... by mickdeek86 on Friday October 14, 2022 @09:40PM (#33210799)
I suppose it would stand to reason. The talk I've heard has been about the disparity of (nearly) banning crab-harvesting but barely restricting crab-wasting.
Re:Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of a... by ilamont on Friday October 14, 2022 @09:41PM (#33210811)
Mick, thanks for taking the time to share your observations and expertise about this industry.

Just want to say that my point about sharing the Canadian cod industry collapse was to illustrate the long-term effects - it still hasn't recovered 30 years later. And maybe that dovetails with what you're saying about indie crabbers being driven out, although from what I understand of the Canadian situation there is basically no industry now, indie or otherwise.

Curious: What is your line of work in Alaska?

Re:Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of a... by mickdeek86 on Friday October 14, 2022 @10:01PM (#33210897)
I agree things aren't looking good long-term. I didn't mean to attack your point specifically but to address the thread as a whole. The Atlantic cod collapse certainly was caused by overfishing, but the situation isn't all that comparable beyond the semi-permanence of the loss. The north Atlantic had a true tragedy-of-the-commons situation, this is most likely climate change, which is even more discouraging.

I'm in PLC/controls, so no expert on commercial fishing. Just hear/saying from those who are.

Re:Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of a... by pedalpete on Saturday October 15, 2022 @02:15AM (#33212219)
You also have to take into account the sexual maturity and number of offspring of the species.

Cod reach sexual maturity from 2-7 years, crab in 1 year. But Atlantic cod apparently lay 200k-2m eggs, alaskan crab between 50k-500k. Though I can't quite see if the cod number is lifetime or annual.

I seem to recall a huge drop in the Salmon population on the Fraser river back in the early 2000s. Seems the numbers continue to bounce around. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/fraser-socke...

Doesn't mean we don't need to know why. It's good that the crab season is cancelled, but I really feel for the crab fishermen. After the last few years, and with inflation, to lose a whole season must be devistating.

Re:Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of a... by wlkerboh on Saturday October 15, 2022 @01:13AM (#33211967)
> Disease: Is there a precedent in Earth's natural history of a 90% die-off in two years due to disease

On mobile, so I can't provide a link. Look up sea star wasting disease. It's affected several species of sea star from Alaska to the Gulf of Mexico. One species, the sunflower star went from being everywhere to a red listed endangered species over just a couple of years.

Re:Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of a... by mickdeek86 on Saturday October 15, 2022 @03:20AM (#33212583)
I'm not readily finding numbers but certainly adjectives like 'devastating', 'massive', etc, so can't specifically compare. Might we suppose that interest of study is correlated with commercial interest? But it does occur to me that it could be a confluence of factors, like the hypothesis about Colony Collapse Disorder in bees having multiple factors synergizing.
Re:Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of a... by SergeAx on Saturday October 15, 2022 @02:30AM (#33212308)
When I was in Norway about ten years ago, I heard a story about Kamchatka crabs, introduced by Soviet scientists to Murmansk and then, due to absence of natural predators started migration first around North Cape and then south towards the Gulfstream. Norway captain of our yacht said, that in warmer waters crabs are more active, so they became an ecological danger of sorts. So I thought that with sea warming we should see a rise, not a drop of crab population, aren't we?
Re:Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of a... by dzhiurgis on Saturday October 15, 2022 @04:42AM (#33213017)
This happened two years ago, do you recon it could be related?

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/10/07/asia/russia-kamchatka-tox...

Re:Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of a... by kaba0 on Saturday October 15, 2022 @05:19AM (#33213185)
> Overfishing

With all due respect, fishing many will take out a huge portion of a potential next generation, so it’s not about affecting the population as is.

Re:Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of a... by goosedragons on Saturday October 15, 2022 @06:20AM (#33213466)
It could be overfishing. That's what it was with Cod. The thing is depending on the stock assessment model used for Alaskan Crab, the data fed into said model (surveys, fishery catch etc.) they could have been over estimating abundance and setting too high quotas for years until poof there's no more.
Re:Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of a... by TheFattestNinja on Saturday October 15, 2022 @06:41AM (#33213560)
In uni we had classes about systems modeling and fishing population was one of the examples studied. Overfishing can cause these phenomenons not so muche because you actually fish 1bln unit and are 1bln down, but because even a modest amount of overfishing past a critical point puts your population on a crashing decrease due to reduced reprodution. So if under normal circumstances your next generation would be lets say 5bln crabs, because the reduced population makes it much (non linearly) harder to repro now you only have 0.5bln. And over a couple years everything is dried up even thought you maybe "only" overfished 200mln units.
Re:Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of a... by pxmpxm on Saturday October 15, 2022 @01:12PM (#33216610)
Non-sequitur, but I love that I get this sort of first-hand color on a niche industry on HN.