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Re:Why Mastering Language Is So Difficult for AI by kelseyfrog on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:15PM (#33124229)
Replace GPT-3 with Bob, language model with person, and deep learning with learning, and you arrive at the conclusion that we're not able to determine whether people actually understand the world around them. Any utterance is indistinguishable from a sufficiently advanced computation model which simply produces the next token of text. Which is to say that the essential discriminating characteristic isn't the fact that GPT-3 runs on a computer, it's that it doesn't have a basis of reality rooted in the present.

The article correctly recognizes this, but then fails to actually make any meaningful contributions. Say the model was in fact conditioned on the basis of a present reality, would that change the interviewee's mind? The fact that it's difficult to say simply hints that the interviewer didn't really do that great of a job drilling down to the interesting questions.

Re:Why Mastering Language Is So Difficult for AI by Jensson on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:28PM (#33124396)
> Replace GPT-3 with Bob, language model with person, and deep learning with learning, and you arrive at the conclusion that we're not able to determine whether people actually understand the world around them.

Sure we can, there are diseases which greatly hampers your ability to understand the world but doesn't hamper your verbal abilities at all, Williams syndrome for example. They are great at generating nonsense stories that doesn't make sense. GPT-3 is like that but much worse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_syndrome

Re:Why Mastering Language Is So Difficult for AI by kelseyfrog on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:41PM (#33124568)
Right, so there is a characteristic other than computational substrate that allows us to differentiate between systems that have this ability and those that don't.

Say we apply the diagnostic criteria of William's syndrome to language models and deduce that they meet the criteria for diagnosis, then the diagnostic itself ie: the test results are the grounding for the conclusion not the computational substrate. In that way the discussion surrounding the computation substrate is a red herring or at the very least a unclear and roundabout way of grouping of the characteristic we're actually interesting in.

Re:Why Mastering Language Is So Difficult for AI by chongli on Friday October 07, 2022 @02:19PM (#33125052)
For a particularly striking example of the opposite problem, see people with Wernicke's Aphasia [1]. Here's an example [2] of a man who had a stroke that left him with the disorder. He can speak fluently but his speech is meaningless.

Byron can understand what's happening in the world around him and can communicate it through body language (just see the warmth in his eyes and his smile) but when he speaks everything comes out in a stream of nonsense.

If we tried to apply a language-model-centric view of intelligence we would rate Byron is unintelligent. That would clearly be a mistake, as anyone can plainly see that he is intelligent.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Receptive_aphasia

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oef68YabD0

Re:Why Mastering Language Is So Difficult for AI by shkkmo on Friday October 07, 2022 @08:12PM (#33128534)
I would point put out that the symbolic structures that enhance han intelligence were implanted during that patient's early life and while the external connection to those structures may have been severed, that doesn't mean that the complicated semantic structures don't still exist.

The contrapositive would be to show a clearly intelligent human with no communication ability that can still model the human world accurately. Past such examples don't tend to show this, though the co morbidity with no early human contact and severe developmental nutritional deficiency makes it hard to be sure.

Re:Why Mastering Language Is So Difficult for AI by beezlebroxxxxxx on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:46PM (#33124637)
I think implying that GPT-3 and a human learn a language in the same way is an error. AI "learning" is very rigid; while human learning is often a complicated mishmash of behaviour, social feedback, reasoning, and imagination.

> conditioned on the basis of a present reality

If we grant this hypothetical, we might find what it "says" fundamentally alien to us --- we might not even know it is saying anything at all.

Re:Why Mastering Language Is So Difficult for AI by Tijdreiziger on Friday October 07, 2022 @04:15PM (#33126388)
Neural networks are modeled after the neurons in human brains, so by definition, the way NNs learn approximates the way humans learn.
Re:Why Mastering Language Is So Difficult for AI by yyyk on Friday October 07, 2022 @04:31PM (#33126543)
Neural networks were modeled after a model of the neurons in human brains, a model which we know by now is inaccurate and misses a lot of details.
Re:Why Mastering Language Is So Difficult for AI by Der_Einzige on Friday October 07, 2022 @05:21PM (#33127000)
So, that's pretty wrong.

Spiking neural networks are possibly closer to being biologically analogies, but they kind of suck to train and don't have good performance.

It takes a lot of computer "neurons" to simulate a single human neuron, and we can't simulate it perfectly in any case.

Re:Why Mastering Language Is So Difficult for AI by Tijdreiziger on Friday October 07, 2022 @07:42PM (#33128341)
Well, yeah, that’s why it’s a model. Our weather models can’t predict the weather perfectly either.
Re:Why Mastering Language Is So Difficult for AI by kelseyfrog on Friday October 07, 2022 @06:14PM (#33127505)
How does the brain do backprop?
Re:Why Mastering Language Is So Difficult for AI by samatman on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:14PM (#33128913)
Airplane wings and tails bear about as much resemblance to bird wings and tails as neural networks do to neurons.

The way airplanes fly doesn't even vaguely resemble how birds fly. Same with neural networks and brains.

Re:Why Mastering Language Is So Difficult for AI by mistermann on Friday October 07, 2022 @02:08PM (#33124932)
> Replace GPT-3 with Bob, language model with person, and deep learning with learning, and you arrive at the conclusion that we're not able to determine whether people actually understand the world around them.

Wouldn't the fact that people's facts do not match up prove that they do not?

Re:Why Mastering Language Is So Difficult for AI by hinkley on Friday October 07, 2022 @06:23PM (#33127574)
I recall reading some advice to parents not to freak out if they discover their child lying at an early age. The sentiment was that lying is built on a mental model of another person, and therefore requires some substantial development of emotional intelligence to even make the attempt.

There's some romanticism in common between magicians, con artists, and fraudsters about how unclearly 'normal people' perceive the world so perhaps there's some truth to what you say. And the perpetual problem with artists and visionaries is that they see the world before everyone else does. For the one group they see things as they are now while everyone else seems to see things as they were 2, 5 years ago. For the other they see what the world could be, by exercising the tools near at hand.

One wonders then how an AI that actually understand things would be seen. As a trickster? A misunderstood intellectual? A madman?

Re:Why Mastering Language Is So Difficult for AI by civilized on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:23PM (#33128947)
Except - as pointed out near the start of the interview - Bob knows that Biden is the current president. GPT-3 not only doesn't know, it doesn't know that it doesn't know. Despite having been trained on the entire internet, which talks quite a bit about who was president when.

Intelligence has been concisely defined as "the ability to profit from one's experiences." GPT-3 seems unable to profit from its ample experience being told who the president is.

People get so incredibly gullible when an exciting fantasy like sentient AI is in front of them. ELIZA was a laughably simple program and still fooled people.