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Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by mschuster91 on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @09:01AM (#33079696)
> I don't see any win besides a minor convenience. A lightning cable weighs almost nothing and it's not a big deal to have one around.

The standardization is good for a lot of purposes:

- cutting down on the number of cables and especially chargers. Seriously, it's amazing to have one single Anker 65W power supply and a single cable on vacation and it can charge everything - tablet, work phone, laptop, power bank, drones, Nintendo Switch. I 'member the dark times where each of these devices had their own cable and for some even own charger.

- car and in-flight entertainment systems can now be relatively secure that USB-C is here to stay and be used for connectivity, which means less effort for this kind of appliance

- if a cable gets lost or damaged, spare cables are cheap and plentiful, and they will also be available in a few years of time

- devices can now be shipped without a charger and cable, which reduces package size and weight (and thus shipping efficiency, as more packages fit into a single container) and as almost everyone has chargers and cables, there is no need to produce as many chargers and cables before, which reduces resource consumption and eventually waste

- when devices break down, chargers still can live on. Even a plain old 5W USB charger is enough to charge an e-cigarette.

- interoperability between devices gets increased. No more micro-USB-to-micro-USB or whatever rare cables to interface, say, a DSLR camera with a phone to transfer photos, a plain USB-C cable is sufficient.

> Feels like there's nothing to celebrate here. Just the EU using its influence to exert control over things that don't matter at all.

Well... Apple refused for years to implement USB-C on the iPhone on their own, while the rest of the market converged first on micro-USB and nowadays on USB-C. The regulation was only established to force the hands of the largest player, which didn't like USB-C because it would destroy its lucrative MFi licensing - basically, rent seeking by preventing competition with a closed solution instead of an open standard.

If there is one thing that drives EU legislation ideas, it is the convergence towards open and common, market-wide standards. This reduces the barriers to entry for small players and leads to more innovation as a result. Additionally, since the 500M citizens of the EU are a market bloc that no manufacturer can afford to ignore and for most things except automotive it isn't worth to set up different supply chains, our legislation can improve the lives of everyone on this planet - just take the RoHS directive, which led to lead solder being phased out worldwide and less lead ending up in the environment.

Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by rrwo on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @09:18AM (#33079914)
> If there is one thing that drives EU legislation ideas, it is the convergence towards open and common, market-wide standards. This reduces the barriers to entry for small players and leads to more innovation as a result.

Too many people don't understand that trade agreements are about common standards and accountability.

There is a lot of noise about EU regulations made by people who are stuck in 18th century mindsets about trade and who fancy themselves as "free traders".

Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by mschuster91 on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @09:27AM (#33080015)
> Too many people don't understand that trade agreements are about common standards and accountability.

Unfortunately, trade agreements can also end up being abused to enable price dumping. Yes, consumers may enjoy lower prices for goods, but if the cost is domestic industry being completely devastated or human rights being violated at large scale (e.g. children being enslaved in questionably legal mining operations or factories), is it worth it?

Most trade agreements at the time have almost no "equal standards" clause for manufacturing. Stuff like toxic materials (e.g. RoHS) is regulated, but lower work standards - minimum wages, child labor prevention, slavery prevention, fire codes (e.g. the horrible fires that regularly happen in Bangladesh [1]), disposal of waste, CO2 emissions - are not.

The result of that non-regulation is that nations like China, India or Vietnam flood European and US markets with goods that are only cheap (compared to domestic products) because the environment and the workers get exploited. We outsource our dirty industry.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Dhaka_garment_factory_fir...

Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by matwood on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @11:00AM (#33081351)
> - cutting down on the number of cables and especially chargers. Seriously, it's amazing to have one single Anker 65W power supply and a single cable on vacation and it can charge everything - tablet, work phone, laptop, power bank, drones, Nintendo Switch. I 'member the dark times where each of these devices had their own cable and for some even own charger.

I have this now, except with 1 extra cable (which happens to charge my iPhone and AirPods).

> - if a cable gets lost or damaged, spare cables are cheap and plentiful, and they will also be available in a few years of time

Walk into any store or gas station today and you'll find all sorts of cable solutions for lightning. I was looking for a cable on vacation last year and had a harder time finding a usb-c to usb-c power cable. Everywhere had lightning though.

> - when devices break down, chargers still can live on.

Again, all my chargers have been usb-c for awhile.

Apple was clearly headed towards usb-c anyway, so I doubt this law changes much in their plans. But, a lot of the benefits were already there. Apple will need to include a lightning to usb-c dongle for a period of time as accessories shift over.

Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by mschuster91 on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @11:05AM (#33081411)
> Apple was clearly headed towards usb-c anyway, so I doubt this law changes much in their plans.

Highly doubt it. In any case, the aim of the EU was to create a standard or at least force the industry into coming up with one - and had Apple been allowed to keep their proprietary connector, the competition would be completely correct in claiming "why should we keep using the standard while Apple can get away with MFi licensing income?".

So, in order to actually keep the standard a standard, Apple now has to be openly forced. I doubt this regulation would have been done if Apple had signalled to be moving away from Lightning.

Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by matwood on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @11:13AM (#33081523)
> Highly doubt it.

C'mon. Apple went all in on usb-c before anyone else. It hurt them with the laptop line and they reversed some. They have moved the iPad, include usb-c -> puck for the watch, and usb-c to lightning for the iPhone. They are transitioning.

Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by ericmay on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @09:47AM (#33080307)
I think if you're going to accuse Apple of rent seeking here you also pretty much have to accuse anyone who develops their own standard or plugin or similar of rent seeking as well.

When will the EU ban HDMI connections to monitors or force Apple to remove them from MacBooks? Why are dSLR cameras allowed to continue to use micro USB and SD cards when they could just use USB-C so we don't have to buy dongles and adapters?

The argument that Apple only provides one physical port (they also provide Magsafe and allow other wireless charging options) isn't sufficient with respect to your discussion point about market-wide standards. This really looks to me like the EU is just saying "we don't like lightning chargers and since nobody is going to defend it except Apple we'll ban it" while they also let plenty of other "standards" run amok in the market.

FWIW I much prefer USB-C and I want my next iPhone to include it (along with any other devices), but I really struggle with the logic of the decision to force it here.

Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by Krisando on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @04:37PM (#33086447)
> Why are dSLR cameras allowed to continue to use micro USB

Because DSLRs are dead. If you look at the new mirrorless cameras, they're either doing USB-C charging, or take batteries charged from a device that uses USB-C.

Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by ericmay on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @04:44PM (#33086533)
Why aren’t TV’s mandated to use USB-C? Why do I still need to connect via HDMI? Why does my TV remote still use double-A batteries instead of USB-C charging?

The cameras are just a random example.

As soon as you look at the EU’s decision (which is one I like the effects of) you can see that this was just a very arbitrary ruling.

Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by Krisando on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @09:53PM (#33090075)
I answered one of the questions asked, I knew about DSLRs because photography is a thing I do. I don't know anything about the others.

> The cameras are just a random example.

And you got your answer for it.

Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by mschuster91 on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @10:11AM (#33080649)
> When will the EU ban HDMI connections to monitors or force Apple to remove them from MacBooks?

HDMI is a somewhat-open-ish, widespread standard and for what it's worth Apple MacBook models haven't carried HDMI ports for ages now.

> Why are dSLR cameras allowed to continue to use micro USB and SD cards when they could just use USB-C so we don't have to buy dongles and adapters?

Again, the market seems to converge towards USB-C already (almost all the models on [1] and other buying guides have USB-C), and for memory cards towards SD cards and CFexpress (on the pro segment). Both of these are somewhat-open-ish again.

The EU usually only steps in when the free market is either stuck somewhere along the road and needs a push towards a specific standard (=> USB-C), profit incentives need to be overruled (=> RoHS / leaded solder) or the free market suffers from oligopolies that need to be broken up for actual competition or the creation of an actual single market (=> EU-wide mobile roaming).

> The argument that Apple only provides one physical port (they also provide Magsafe and allow other wireless charging options) isn't sufficient with respect to your discussion point about market-wide standards.

Apple can provide a MagSafe port on MacBooks or a Lightning port on iDevices if they want. All Apple has to do is to support the mandated USB-C port as well!

[1] https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/buying-guides/the-best-mi...

Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by ericmay on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @11:08AM (#33081461)
> HDMI is a somewhat-open-ish, widespread standard and for what it's worth Apple MacBook models haven't carried HDMI ports for ages now.

These ones do as they were re-implemented per customer demand: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-14-and-16/specs/

Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by pb7 on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @11:10AM (#33081488)
>If there is one thing that drives EU legislation ideas, it is the convergence towards open and common, market-wide standards. This reduces the barriers to entry for small players and leads to more innovation as a result.

Can you provide some examples of innovation that the EU has made in this industry in the last 20 years?

Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by mschuster91 on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @12:19PM (#33082613)
For sure:

- mobile phone and data roaming, the most notable user-facing innovation

- the single market itself with all the associated side legislation (GDPR, VAT OSS) that allows every tiny small business to serve the entire EU

- Schengen free-movement zone

- Euro currency

- SEPA instead of national schemes (ties in into the single market aspect as well) with everything from card payments over wire transfers to direct debit covered. Strong authentication required for opening bank accounts. No more paper cheques. (Directly compare all of this to the hot mess that the US is)

- EPD PS2 that forces banks to provide APIs to third parties, e.g. budget planners

- unified drone legislation that allows me without tons of paperwork and individual permits to fly my drone everywhere reasonable in Europe

Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by pb7 on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @12:37PM (#33082869)
I meant innovation in consumer electronics or even just software services as a result of legislation, not legislation itself. Payments and bank APIs count. Thanks for the examples.
Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by inferiorhuman on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @09:20AM (#33079933)

  and especially chargers
Eh? The iPhone charges over a USB-Lightning cable. There are USB-C and USB-A versions of the cable available. The charger was never the issue. In fact Apple stopped including (USB) chargers with the iPhone a while back.
Re:EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 by mschuster91 on Tuesday October 04, 2022 @09:28AM (#33080037)
I was talking about all the device markets that have switched over to USB-C. It's not just iPhones.

And for what it's worth, even the iPhone could benefit from not having to include an USB-A-to-Lightning cable any more.