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Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by danielmarkbruce on Thursday September 29, 2022 @02:15PM (#33024915)
It's a good place to learn real engineering. They know how to build systems. There are some of the best engineering minds on the planet in there.
Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by lostcolony on Thursday September 29, 2022 @02:27PM (#33025084)
Only if you very narrowly define real engineering.

Google, collectively, may be among the best (I'm not hazarding an opinion) at solving technical problems.

I, however, expect good engineers to help with product vision, understanding and addressing customer pain points, and amongst the senior engineers especially, be effective at communication and helping manage upwards to achieve those ends. Somewhere, Google engineers are dropping the ball there, or are so detached from those problems that their abilities in those skills are untested.

Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by danielmarkbruce on Thursday September 29, 2022 @02:31PM (#33025119)
Yeah, that's fair. I'm just trying to discern between building a distributed database system with 5 9's and writing a crud app I guess. I agree "real" isn't the right term for that difference, I don't know what is.
Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by hbrn on Thursday September 29, 2022 @02:40PM (#33025235)
Here's a counterintuitive piece of wisdom: building both is equally hard.

Running marathon is way harder than running 100m. Most people are not even capable of doing marathons.

But that doesn't mean that winning 100m is easier than winning a marathon. Might even be the opposite, because of harsh competition.

When you're building products, your goal is not run. Your goal is to win.

Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by danielmarkbruce on Thursday September 29, 2022 @03:01PM (#33025499)
Nah, it's not. Consultants pump out CRUD apps with 4th rate engineers left and right.

About 10 people on planet earth could have come up with Spanner.

I'm just talking about engineering. I'm not talking about building products which get market acceptance, which is a lot more than engineering, and might be your point.

Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by lmm on Thursday September 29, 2022 @07:44PM (#33028890)
> About 10 people on planet earth could have come up with Spanner.

I'm not convinced. I've worked in many industries and many company sizes and I've met smart people everywhere. I think a lot of devs who are busy pumping out CRUD could create these kind of systems if they were in a situation that called for them (hell, it gives you a chance to actually use all that stuff from your CS degree), just as I know for sure that a lot of devs who are busy pumping out CRUD are more than capable of creating a programming language. The bottleneck isn't technical ability, it's being in an environment that will actually pay you to work on that stuff.

Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by danielmarkbruce on Thursday September 29, 2022 @11:55PM (#33030716)
Some people convince themselves that Lebron isn't that good, that the guy at the high school across town was almost as good. Or that they can hit a 90 mph fast ball. Or that they could take Mike Tyson. There are all these funny stories of guys wanting to fight Mike, race Michael Johnson etc. They really just can't see how far they are away from the really freakishly talented folks.

Folks like Jeff Dean at Google are really out there. He built a number of systems that very few people were capable of. But you have to be at a certain level to even see it.

Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by ren_engineer on Thursday September 29, 2022 @06:44PM (#33028342)
some of the most valuable companies on earth are "just CRUD apps", which was the point of the comment above. Knowing what to build is important, which google fails at in most cases. Google has incredible engineers working on stupid projects
Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by danielmarkbruce on Thursday September 29, 2022 @07:03PM (#33028525)
Sure, but it's a non-sequitur from my comment.
Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by thaumasiotes on Friday September 30, 2022 @02:04AM (#33031509)
> Running marathon is way harder than running 100m. Most people are not even capable of doing marathons.

> But that doesn't mean that winning 100m is easier than winning a marathon. Might even be the opposite, because of harsh competition.

If we go much, much farther into this analogy, it tells us that for any given agent, one of these races is always going to be much easier than the other one.

If you want to be competitive in marathons at a world level, you need to be East African. If you want to be competitive in 100m sprints, you need to be West African. Which race is easier? That depends who you are.

Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by ThrowawayR2 on Thursday September 29, 2022 @04:19PM (#33026559)
> "I, however, expect good engineers to help with product vision, understanding and addressing customer pain points, and amongst the senior engineers especially, be effective at communication and helping manage upwards to achieve those ends."

Not necessarily. FAANGs have an army of product/project/program managers, market researchers, and other analysts and experts to handle product vision, etc. for the engineering team. That's the big advantage of being a megacorporation: they can afford the overhead of having their employees be narrowly focused specialists.

(It's also why one sometimes see people who leave FAANGs stumble when they join a startup; they're used to having all that infrastructure supporting them and have to adjust to an environment where it isn't there.)

Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by lostcolony on Friday September 30, 2022 @12:50PM (#33037248)
Yes necessarily, as I'm defining my expectations. If Google has made it so engineering doesn't participate at all in product direction, that means they're not letting their engineers work optimally in accordance with my expectations (whatever those are worth); the 'untested' case I mentioned before. Which, as you note, is why in other companies those individuals may not be as able to shine, since they're being measured against a number of other skills that form the holistic whole of "solving business problems", rather than just the subset of "solving technical problems".
Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by hbrn on Thursday September 29, 2022 @02:32PM (#33025130)
And yet those minds managed to build the most hated frontend framework. Not just bad or mediocre. The most hated one.

Now, I'm not denying they are super smart. But you need a mix of book smart and street smart to be successful. Google seems to only focus on books. They are incredible at solving problems. But they suck at picking which problems to solve.

Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by danielmarkbruce on Thursday September 29, 2022 @02:57PM (#33025444)
A front-end framework isn't exactly the kind of thing the engineers I'm talking about work on... there are 10's of thousands of engineers at Google. A good number of them aren't building systems per se. But if you want to learn how to build systems, some folks in there are crazy good.
Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by hbrn on Thursday September 29, 2022 @04:27PM (#33026671)
Might be a bit anecdotal, but I actually hired ex-Googlers for two different startups in the past. I would be hesitant to do it again.

They can indeed be good at building complex systems.

But when we needed simple systems, they would still build complex systems.

When we needed to ship product, they would still build complex systems.

Twice I had the experience where an ex-Googler would promise to rewrite a piece of software from scratch because it had a bad architecture, only to quit/get fired few months later (obviously the big rewrite was not finished by then).

Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by danielmarkbruce on Thursday September 29, 2022 @04:39PM (#33026838)
Yup, I believe it.
Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by akmarinov on Thursday September 29, 2022 @03:21PM (#33025754)
Come on, Flutter’s not that bad…
Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by pb7 on Thursday September 29, 2022 @02:39PM (#33025218)
Which framework are you talking about?
Re:Google is shutting down Stadia by hbrn on Thursday September 29, 2022 @02:42PM (#33025260)