I live in Germany and honestly it just seems to me from speaking to Germans that they have the worst mixture of a lack of sense of quality and also an uncaring-ness/sense of futility about it. I think it is kind of like the "poor service at restaurants" thing. It is a negative point that has become accepted and almost expected by Germans, so there is literally no desire to change it, which would take a lot of effort for very little gain.

Tangentially, it also reminds me of going back to the UK last week to visit a conference. The trains were just so much different to those in Germany, even the crappy "Stansted Express", those here in Germany feel very utilitarian and unfriendly (particularly the Deutsche Bahn "Bombardier Double-deck Coach") while in the UK similarly priced train services are more explicitly friendly and caring in their design.

I do think it is a systematic or cultural "problem", but also it's kind of one of the things I like about Germany. The emphasis is on things that are completely tangible to everyone rather than more removed concerns like aesthetics and friendliness. And, I think this bleeds into the cultural arts too. I have noticed the same thing with a lot of popular German music too. It just lacks the sense of "coolness" that there is in other countries, and feels almost like an cringey imitation of other countries popular music

>Tangentially, it also reminds me of going back to the UK last week to visit a conference. The trains were just so much different to those in Germany, even the crappy "Stansted Express", those here in Germany feel very utilitarian and unfriendly (particularly the Deutsche Bahn "Bombardier Double-deck Coach") while in the UK similarly priced train services are more explicitly friendly and caring in their design.

The friendliest thing a train can do is bloody show up on time, which National Rail seems to have had a problem with lately.

To be fair, that’s not exactly what German trains are known for either :D

I don't think anyone can reasonably dispute that Germans don't value great customer service much -

but it's ridiculous to claim that the culture that produced Goethe, Schiller and, to a large part, the Romantic era doesn't value aesthetics.

I think that most "popular" (i.e. charts-topping) German music is rather bland, but I feel the same about chart hits from other countries. Meanwhile there is some German music that is really good - though of course whether you'll like what I like will depend on your taste.

I’m talking only about the popular culture, not the past

Honestly, I disagree with pretty much everything you said. I don’t feel like I get poor service, trains aren’t designed unfriendly, and we certainly shouldn’t strive to make things less functional for some feeling of kindness.

Can’t talk about popular German music, as I don’t listen to that or to other popular music.

Have you spent much times in other countries? I just spent a week in the UK with a German who had culture shock that strangers were actually talking to each other, that waiters called him "sir", and that the trains were so high-tech.

Mainly I find that Germans who disagree with these things have not lived in other countries, and those that do immediately agree.

Yeah, you prefer the forced fake-friendlyness of anglo countries, most of us actually do not want that. And yes, I have lived in other countries.

The fact that you think the friendliness of people in anglo countries is fake is very sad...

EDIT: trust me the banter between two strangers chatting in the UK is not fake. We are not americans. We are simply willing to talk to people we don't know. Germans do not do this. Isolating yourself from strangers is not something to be proud of.