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Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by zhxshen on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @10:52AM (#32825036)
It's easy for us to be sanguine about knocking down the ladder after most of us have already scurried our ways to the top. Think of existing regulation (banks, environment, agriculture, pharma... you name it). Is it really there to protect the little guy? Or, is it a revolving-door between the regulator and the regulated, where megacorps can use public funds & resources to defend their own private interests?
Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by thatguy0900 on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @11:17AM (#32825426)
You can look at see what a unregulated us banking system looks like, it's alive and well right now. Crypto is a hot mess of scams and fraud. It wasn't far in the past that rivers caught on fire, either. Regulation isn't perfect but neither is megacorps having free reign to conduct psychological tests on the public at large to see how much stupid shit they can manipulate them into thinking as their whole business model.
Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by zhxshen on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @03:19PM (#32829026)
Company dumps creosote into the ground for 40+ years. Somebody blows the whistle, EPA prosecutes the whistleblower. Company gets a slap-on-the-wrist fine, while the whistleblower gets house arrest.

https://theintercept.com/2016/11/25/did-the-epa-prosecute-an...

Administrative law is broken. Doubling-down on it isn't going to solve the problem.

Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by hackerlight on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @11:31AM (#32825614)
It's obviously a mix of both, and it's up to us to make the system tilt more towards the former.
Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by zhxshen on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @01:32PM (#32827531)
Through venal politicians, and--judging by the typical "man on the street" segment--voters who are barely literate?
Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by hackerlight on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @01:48PM (#32827793)
Well not everyone is illiterate, so you're trying to weave some rhetorical trick here.

Anyway, the alternative of me being forced to huff your SUV exhaust and listen to your 6am leafblower and get early dementia is not a world I want to be a part of.

Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by aaaaaaaaata on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @11:34PM (#32833064)
You know 100 years ago, people were a hell of a lot less likely to make a racket at 6am in a residential area.

Any reflection on why that was?

Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by hackerlight on Wednesday September 14, 2022 @01:56AM (#32833741)
Mechanically they couldn't unless they tried really hard to intentionally do so. Now it's just a default given cars, motorbikes, leafblowers, lawnmowers. Late capitalism has been effective at putting the costs onto other people.

Don't get me wrong, such inventions are net good (cars and motorbikes yes, not so much leafblowers), but they need to be regulated and taxed in a way that manages the additional cost burden that others are forced to pay.

Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by aaaaaaaaata on Wednesday September 14, 2022 @08:08AM (#32836022)
It's because people weren't afraid of punching each other in the head as one or all potential steps of conflict resolution.

Correct?, no. Irreplaceable incentive to not be a dick? Seemingly.

Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by zhxshen on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @01:57PM (#32827942)
Not a trick... an observation. Spengler put it better than I ever could in "The Decline of the West":

If by "democracy" we mean the form which the Third Estate as such wishes to impart to public life as a whole, it must be concluded that democracy and plutocracy are the same thing under the two aspects of wish and actuality, theory and practice, knowing and doing. It is the tragic comedy of the world‑improvers' and freedom‑teachers' desperate fight against money that they are ipso facto assisting money to be effective. Respect for the big number—expressed in the principles of equality for all, natural rights, and universal suffrage—is just as much a class‑ideal of the unclassed as freedom of public opinion (and more particularly freedom of the press) is so. These are ideals, but in actuality the freedom of public opinion involves the preparation of public opinion, which costs money; and the freedom of the press brings with it the question of possession of the press, which again is a matter of money; and with the franchise comes electioneering, in which he who pays the piper calls the tune. The representatives of the ideas look at one side only, while the representatives of money operate with the other. The concepts of Liberalism and Socialism are set in effective motion only by money. … the Jacobins had destroyed the old obligations of the blood and so had emancipated money; now it stepped forward as lord of the land. There is no proletarian, not even a Communist movement, that has not operated in the interests of money, in the directions indicated by money, and for the time being permitted by money—and that without the idealists among its leaders having the slightest suspicion of the fact. The great movement which makes use of the catchwords of Marx has not delivered the entrepreneur into the power of the worker, but both into that of the Bourse.

Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by prophesi on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @06:06PM (#32830793)
Not sure how an excerpt from an early 1900's German book debating the merits of unbridled democracy has anything to do with today's literacy of the Third Estate.
Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by zhxshen on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @06:32PM (#32831017)
Read it again. Money money money. Whether it's Spengler or Plato, Weimar or Weimerica, people haven't changed. The lesson still applies.
Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by noelsusman on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @01:55PM (#32827909)
Yes, precisely. Churchill was right in 1947 and he's still right today. Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the other ones.
Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by zhxshen on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @02:07PM (#32828068)
That doesn't really figure into it. My point is that administrative law has failed. It invests too much power into too few people with nowhere near enough transparency, and the things it seeks to address are so far above the "the people's" pay-grade that it presents an intractable situation with respect to assessing and maintaining performance.

I think a better solution to the problems Spengler pointed out (see below) would be good old-fashioned torts. We have plenty of under-employed ambulance chasers. If only a few of them manage their way to the middle of the big-tech tootsie-roll pop, that would be one hell of a message, and far more effective at improving practices than the occasional $150M slap on the wrist.

PS> Churchill was a fat drunk who went into the war against methed-out nazis with an empire upon which the sun never set, and came out of it only by the skin of his teeth despite plenty of help. The Greeks & Romans will still be quoted long after he has (rightfully, mercifully) been forgotten.

Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by hackerlight on Wednesday September 14, 2022 @12:15AM (#32833273)
Torts (+ Coase Theorem) is the ancapistan catch-all solution but it doesn't work in practice because the frictions (e.g legal fees, time, access) prevent small everyday externalities from being reasonably addressable.

I've seen a small time civil case pertaining to a dispute totalling sub-$50k drag out for 10 years and cost more than the damages. It doesn't work empirically for everyday disputes because it puts the onus and burden onto the small time victim, which is net unprofitable given all the frictions, leading to persistence of externalities.

You also don't solve the root problem of corruption by moving to a torts only system. Torts as a solution would rely on property laws that are themselves free of moneyed corruption. It also would rely on a judiciary that can't be bought. So it's shifting the same problem we have now (corporatocracy and entrenched interests) to a stunted and less competent system of enforcement.

  "My point is that administrative law has failed."
It hasn't failed. For example, look at leaded petrol, nitrogen oxides, smoking and the ozone layer. It's just highly imperfect and needs to be improved.
Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by zhxshen on Wednesday September 14, 2022 @07:02AM (#32835484)
> the frictions (e.g legal fees, time, access) prevent small everyday externalities from being reasonably addressable

Small infractions by small operators, perhaps so. Small infractions by big operators, hell no. Thanks to class action, civil suits are perpetual hearburn & lost sleep for them. There's always a batch of aggressive trial lawyers ready to take the case on contingency, and even if the original plaintiff's damages are very small, it still adds up to big money when you include payouts to the rest of the class, & of course, punitive damages--which can exceed the damages by orders of magnitude.

> It also would rely on a judiciary that can't be bought

Buying off judges and juries is a costlier & dangerously more sensitive task than promising a comfy board position to an agency head over drinks and a meal at a restaurant in DC.

> It hasn't failed.

The microplastics in our bloodstreams and the glyphosate in our cheerios say otherwise.

Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by hackerlight on Wednesday September 14, 2022 @09:20AM (#32836778)
> Small infractions by big operators, hell no

Hell yes.

The large majority of infractions, perpetrated by both small and large companies, are infeasible to address via courts, for a multitude of reasons. Either the frictions exceed the benefit to a class action, or the cost is too diffuse.

Consider global warming. In a torts system, how can I hold an industrial farm or a car manufacturer to account for the role they're playing? You can't, because the cost is too diffuse.

Consider social media. In a torts system, how can I hold a social media company to account for the role they play in an uptick of stochastic terrorism? You can't, because the cost is too diffuse and the burden of proof makes it difficult to draw causal links in single cases.

Consider fast food. In a torts system, how can you address the downstream negative externalities of obesity on society by mass producing unhealthy, unhappy people, which has downstream impacts on the polity, health system, and so on? You can't.

Centralized regulation is the only pragmatic solution to certain problems.

Besides, even if all large-scale infractions were addressable (they're not, as the above examples show), it's still a massive hole in your system to simply allow all small-scale infractions to persist.

> The microplastics in our bloodstreams and the glyphosate in our cheerios say otherwise.

This is the binary bias. Failure isn't a binary switch. We've had a degree of good success (leaded petrol, ozone layer) and a degree of failure (microplastics, carbon pollution).

You also unjustifiably blame all failures on the administrative system, which conveniently leaves out that we actually do also have a torts system in place now. Our system is mixed. So, both your hated system and your desired system are simultaneously failing, but you post hoc attribute all failures to the former.

> Buying off judges and juries is a costlier & dangerously more sensitive

Even if I accepted that bribing a judge is riskier than bribing an agency head, you still have no good solution to buying off lawmakers under a torts-only system, or to costs imposed by operators that aren't pragmatically addressable in a court.

Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by daniel-cussen on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @06:07AM (#33006291)
This started shifting in like 1990, with the crazy self-inflicted bitchvictimization of McDonalds's acting so pathetic because they scalded a woman causing 3rd degree burns. Ended up killing her because she couldnd't stay interested in life after all the humiliation from every angle. Died in part of her injuries. Poor little McDonalds' guilty as shit gets its poor account SUED (they always like ejaculated that word, way too much emphasis, highest accusativity) a 78 old lady who did literally nothing wrong. Corporate America also started spreading rumors of lawsuits like a man shooting a burglar and he falls down the stairs, sues for bad stairs. In Latin America! There were TV shows about "stupid lawsuits"! And of course highly interested in juries getting losing money by being juries, and resisting the courts catch up with inflation. Yeah.
Re:Mudge Twitter whistleblower testimony [video] by mc32 on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @11:13AM (#32825362)
Regulation is a double edged sword. At least in some industries much of it is to protect the little guy, but it’s also a whole new jobs program. Just like most “guest speakers” invited to a company. They’re a cottage industry and they give the Corp some cred cover.