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Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by tristor on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:37PM (#32818086)
> I really think all men should withhold all judgement of women, pregnant or not.

No. The right to an opinion and to express it is not contingent on ones gender or gender expression. It is perfectly reasonable for people to make observations, conduct scientific research, form opinions, and discuss those opinions even if the outcome of such doesn't personally affect them. And, in point of fact, it's /strictly necessary/ for societal level issues.

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by Maursault on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:15PM (#32818573)
It isn't people you're talking about, it is only men. The issue is only men are giving their opinion, which they feel very strongly about, and it is a circumstance they, biologically speaking, can never experience.

So please take the advice of another man: whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. A woman's right to do as she pleases with her body is as absolute as a man's right to do as he pleases with his body.

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by tristor on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:53PM (#32818944)
We're not talking about the right to bodily autonomy, we're talking about doing scientific research and forming and expressing opinions. By your logic, we should rip down all the signs legally mandated in bar bathrooms informing people that alcohol during pregnancy causes birth defects.
Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by Maursault on Monday September 12, 2022 @08:54PM (#32819433)
> we're talking about doing scientific research

While the article concerns a study, I responded to the OP of this thread, which is scrutinizing, "Why are pregnant women smoking weed to begin with?"

Now you have just advanced a straw man argument, as the topic of this thread is not research nor your defense of opinions, but rather, scrutinizing pregnant women.

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by tristor on Monday September 12, 2022 @11:43PM (#32820444)
It’s exactly what I said it is and you are engaged in politically motivated reasoning as evidenced by other subthreads and not making good faith assertions. The only one straw manning others is you.
Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by Maursault on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @08:28AM (#32823407)
Your argument is as unsound as your confusion is deep.

Do not judge. Let the wicked be wicked.

Don't you read your Bible, child?

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by _-david-_ on Monday September 12, 2022 @11:24PM (#32820345)
Should men not tell women not to drink alcohol while pregnant? Men can't understand what it is like to be pregnant. What right does a man have to control a women's body?
Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by Maursault on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @08:29AM (#32823418)
Under what circumstances will you tolerate being told what to do? Right! Never.
Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by _-david-_ on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @10:36AM (#32824823)
I tolerate it all the time. I live in a society that tells me I can't jaywalk, speed, drink and drive and everything else there are laws against. These crimes a victimless and yet I still follow them (for the most part). When I don't I accept the risk I am given a ticket or am arrested.
Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by asveikau on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @06:30PM (#32831003)
What about a doctor giving medical advice? You want to listen to that type of person, do you not? That's not "telling you what to do", it's offering a medical opinion which is typically sought out.

So, most doctors would advise against alcoholic beverages during pregnancy, I hope.

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by diab0lic on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:24PM (#32817926)
Alcohol has been in use for ~7000 years yet society only began broadly recognizing it as harmful during pregnancy in the 1970s. [0] I don’t think the form of your argument holds any weight. Would you make the same claim regarding the use of alcohol during pregnancy?

[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26137906/

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by Maursault on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:38PM (#32818824)
This is a straw man argument. You have introduced alcohol to set up your straw man so that you can attack it. As such, your argument is fallacious, and would be no different if you had used bleach instead of alcohol. Neither bleach nor alcohol is cannabis.
Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by diab0lic on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @01:01PM (#32827036)
Let me be very clear, I am not disagreeing with your point. Nor am I agreeing. I’m simply stating that your conclusion does not follow for the form of your argument, and providing an alternative example.
Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by Maursault on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @09:17PM (#32832158)
Now you are being evasive, and your example is still a straw man.

The form of my argument is that it is significant that there are not massive amounts of psychosis historically correlated to cannabis use, like we should have seen if this study is valid, and we really would have noticed. You're suggesting no one noticed alcohol was bad, either, but this is false. In fact, alcohol has been widely recognized as being destructive since it first became popular. That no one did any studies on the effect on fetuses until the 1970's is incidental, as anyone should have been able to guess this correctly without a formal clinical study.

Regardless of alcohol being a poor replacement for cannabis in example or metaphor, it is still a straw man argument.

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by asveikau on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:21PM (#32817893)
https://www.google.com/search?q=cannabis+psychosis

People are not making this up. It's a risk that needs to be weighed.

Acknowledging this fact is not the same as being in favor of prohibition or criminalization or saying it'll happen to everyone.

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by Maursault on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:26PM (#32818707)
I disagree. I think there is a lot of misinformation flooding the nets and the news, and this is provably true. Psychosis is a pretty obvious condition, and it was not difficult to observe psychosis thousands of years ago. Cannabis has been in wide global use since at least 8000BC, and yet... there just historically aren't enough crazy people for this to remotely pass the stiff test.
Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by asveikau on Monday September 12, 2022 @09:10PM (#32819546)
I've personally seen someone with bipolar disorder enter a months long psychotic episode after exposure to small amounts of THC. That is how I know it's a thing.

It happens.

I think psychotic illnesses are complex and there is no one cause. THC can be a factor. This is also what the Google results I linked you to said

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by superkuh on Monday September 12, 2022 @09:26PM (#32819680)
Unless they regularly entered bipolar episodes after imbibing a small amount of THC I'm not sure you're making a claim here. You saw it happen one time to a person who also goes into bipolar incidents without it and now it's the THC's fault? It isn't a very convincing anecdote.

I bet they drank water before the bipolar episode too.

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by asveikau on Monday September 12, 2022 @10:41PM (#32820131)
There are any factors that cause such an episode in someone with susceptibility. I'll repeat: [it is] complex and there is no one cause. THC can be a factor. This is also what the Google results I linked you to said
Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by Maursault on Monday September 12, 2022 @09:31PM (#32819724)
Correlation is not causation. And even to suggest small amounts of THC can cause "a months long psychotic episode" is absurd, especially because it is an ordinary risk of being bipolar. If a mentally healthy individual was sent into a month's long psychotic episode immediately after smoking a bong, then maybe, and that is still a huge maybe.

Again, cannabis has been in use recreationally and medicinally for more than 10,000 years. There are billions of users on Earth today, but psychotic episode remains a vanishingly rare event among users, insignificantly so. The general scientific consensus still remains that weed is harmless. But these days conservatives have gone overboard in twisting the facts to promote their nanny state agenda. I expect that, given recent assaults on rights, pregnant women alone are going to remove them from Congress.

But by all means, please believe what you wish, just don't expect anyone else to support your fantastic beliefs.

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by asveikau on Monday September 12, 2022 @10:35PM (#32820104)
> but psychotic episode remains a vanishingly rare event among users, insignificantly so.

I don't think that's likely to be true at all. Single digit percentages of all humans have a psychotic disorder. If cannabis had no effect and such an event is coincidental, we would certainly not call it "vanishingly rare".

> But these days conservatives have gone overboard in twisting the facts to promote their nanny state agenda.

To be clear I explicitly said this is not a reason to ban on criminalize the substance. Just to not be in denial about it.

Anyway, the Google search I sent to you has plenty of sources who agree with my position.

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by Maursault on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @08:32AM (#32823449)
You can not win an argument promoting false facts. Far less than one percent of the population will suffer a psychotic episode, between 0.25% and 0.64%.

If being told what to do is intolerable to you, then stop telling others what to do. You are not in charge, nor are those with your false beliefs.

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by asveikau on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @12:13PM (#32826270)
You seem confused here. I never told you what to do. Not once. I've said it explicitly several times and you appear not to be reading.

Nor have I given you any false information. I said single digit percentages for psychotic disorders. About 4% of the population has bipolar (bipolar I can involve psychosis) and about 1% has schizophrenia.

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by Maursault on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @08:36PM (#32831900)
> Single digit percentages of all humans have a psychotic disorder.

This is false, and that was what I meant. BPD is not a psychotic disorder, even if psychotic episodes are possible, they are rare. Schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder, but at a rate of 0.45%, not 1%.

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by asveikau on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @09:16PM (#32832155)
Psychotic episodes with bipolar are not rare.
Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by Maursault on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @09:36PM (#32832287)
It is estimated only about 5-10% of everyone in the world will ever experience a psychotic episode in their lifetime. If 4% are bipolar, then only 0.2%-0.4% of those will ever experience a psychotic episode, making it quite rare. Among bipolar patients, the real danger is depression, as they will all experience that. But if they do experience a psychotic episode, it is usually the first indicator of BPD, leading to diagnosis, education, and treatment.
Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by asveikau on Wednesday September 14, 2022 @11:59AM (#32839049)
> It is estimated only about 5-10% of everyone in the world will ever experience a psychotic episode in their lifetime

Single digit to double digit percentages.

> Among bipolar patients, the real danger is depression, as they will all experience that.

Iirc you don't need depression to fit diagnostic criteria of bipolar I. Just a manic episode will do it.

Depression will lead the sufferer to seek treatment. Mania and psychosis will make their life hell and possibly have them harm others, but they will think they are ok.

I think maybe you haven't been close to a particularly bad case of bipolar I. It can be very similar to schizoaffective disorder or schizophrenia. People can hop around these diagnoses because they can be hard to pin down and professionals can disagree.

> it is usually the first indicator of BPD, leading to diagnosis, education, and treatment.

That's a fairly optimistic scenario. Spoken like someone who has not seen a loved one deny the illness and avoid treatment.

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by nl on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @10:37PM (#32832673)
Psychotic symptoms occur at a higher rate in people with BPD than in the general population.

> What are psychotic symptoms in bipolar disorder?

> Psychotic symptoms are sometimes found in people with bipolar disorder, particularly in the manic phase of the illness.. [snip] ..

> Moderate quality evidence suggests the prevalence of visual hallucinations in people with affective psychosis is around 15%, and the prevalence of auditory hallucinations is around 28% [snip. These rates] are higher than general population rates (7%).

https://library.neura.edu.au/bipolar-disorder/signs-and-symp...

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by someguydave on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:43PM (#32818188)
Women are not in a vacuum, their decisions impact all the people and babies around them and those people and babies have a right to an opinion.
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Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by someguydave on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:41PM (#32818846)
> Babies are not fetuses

false

> Just as no one has a right to tell you what you can do with your body

parents have this authority over children and the states have police power to tell people exactly what they may or may not do with their bodies

>neither you nor society has any right to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body

nope

> 4th Amendment guarantees the right of the people to be secure in their person

The 4th amendment prohibits the government from seizing things. It has nothing to say about women from murdering babies.

> about to be creamed in election

seems unlikely from the polls I see but I would gladly trade all Republican political prospects for criminalizing abortions

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by Maursault on Monday September 12, 2022 @09:50PM (#32819857)
> I would gladly trade all Republican political prospects for criminalizing abortions

We already know the results of that bone-headed idea. Criminalizing abortion does nothing to stop abortion, it only denies women the ability to have a safe abortion. Criminalizing abortion only serves to maim and kill teenage girls. Which is the lesser of two evils, the loss of an unknown potential, or the loss of a known viable individual? I am sure you've heard before the famous wisdom of George Santayana:

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by hellohowareu on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:19PM (#32818627)
"misogyny"

Uh, no.

Criticism does not equate to hatred.

And the more the word "misogyny" is misused by being thrown around frivolously, the less useful it is as an accurate descriptor.

You do our language and society a disservice by conflating the concepts of hate vs critique.

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by Maursault on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:31PM (#32818743)
When the criticism boils down to "you aren't doing what we tell you to do," or "I don't approve what you do with your body," then, oh, no, when directed towards women by men this is nothing less than misogyny, and denying it doesn't cut the mustard. Leave women alone, and then we'll know you're not a misogynist. Otherwise, the descriptor fits.
Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by hellohowareu on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @02:15PM (#32828205)
Saying something is real, does not make that thing real.

You are not the gatekeeper of what is and is not "misogyny".

Leave women alone? Are women somehow ordained with a shield against any criticism? No one can ever criticize a woman-- following that logic... women are always correct?

That sounds authoritarian to me.

Definition of authoritarian

1 : of, relating to, or favoring blind submission to authority 2 : of, relating to, or favoring a concentration of power in a leader or an elite not constitutionally responsible to the people an authoritarian regime.

__________

The logic in: criticism != hatred is quite sound.

a definition of criticism: the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes.

a definition of critique: a detailed analysis and assessment of something

a definition of hatred: intense dislike or ill will

_________

TLDR: disapproval does not equal intense dislike

Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by Maursault on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @08:48PM (#32831968)
The issue is no one has any place scrutinizing or judging another because it is hypocritical. That is the wisdom behind Matthew's 7th chapter. If you are perfect and make no mistakes, only then you can judge without hypocrisy. People do what they want, and they live with and are responsible for their decisions. Scrutiny from the peanut gallery doesn't enter into it. Mind yourself, and no one else, but if your compulsion and distaste gets the better of you regarding any behavior whatsoever of pregnant women, be prepared to be labelled, justly or not.
Re:Prenatal cannabis exposure associated with mental disorde... by hellohowareu on Wednesday September 14, 2022 @01:32PM (#32840454)
"The issue is no one has any place scrutinizing or judging another because it is hypocritical."

Just curious-- do you mean that in absolute terms?

For example: Can a teacher/parent/manager scrutinize or judge a student/child/employee? Certainly this is expected virtually all cultures.

Or, if you hire someone to do work on your house, or to build a car, train, or airplane, let's say. You cannot scrutinize their work?

There are entire industries & occupations devoted to this very practice-- Inspections.

So, I very much disagree. I think observable premises in reality demonstrate a different reality from what you claim.