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Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by paganel on Friday September 09, 2022 @12:53PM (#32781734)
And because I Ctrl+F-ed it and couldn’t find anything, one of those documented harms is the Rohingya Genocide. Putting this here so that we know what we’re talking about.

Seeing devs non-ironically complain about internal departments like this one which was set up in order not to let that happen again kind of saddens me a lot. No, productivity and work is not more important than making sure that that work doesn’t enable a genocide campaign in a specific corner of the world.

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by wpietri on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:22PM (#32782201)
Yeah, when I say that Facebook has a body count, I'm not kidding. Facebook touches people's lives in so many ways that it's hard to even estimate the total number. But it seems the barest ethical minimum to say, "Hey, is there a way to be sure this next feature is responsible for zero deaths?"
Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by Dracophoenix on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:41PM (#32782456)
> "Hey, is there a way to be sure this next feature is responsible for zero deaths?"

What makes you think this possible? I don't see where Facebook is particularly responsible here. Telephones and radios have been used to coordinate assassinations and genocides. Movies have been used to justify invasions. Why isn't anyone burning the effigies of Alexander Graham Bell, Guglielmo Marconi, and Thomas Edison?

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by wpietri on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:50PM (#32782569)
Sorry, explain to me how Marconi directly profited from the Rwandan genocide?

In any case, perfection is rarely possible but often an excellent goal to aim for. For example, consider child car fatalities. We might not immediately get it to zero, but that is no reason to say, "Fuck it, they can always have more kids."

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by thegrimmest on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:22PM (#32782195)
I think people fundamentally disagree here. I would attribute the entire (read 100%) responsibility for the Rohingya Genocide or other similar events to the perpetrators. Facebook is just another tool, and its creators bear no more blame for the actions of their users in the real world than the manufactures of the vehicles driven by the Burmese military.
Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by wpietri on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:32PM (#32782333)
Responsibility is not zero sum. The people who pulled the triggers? Responsible. The people who gave those people the orders? Responsible. People who told them where to find the people they killed? Responsible. Arms dealers who sold them the guns? If they had any inkling that this was a possible outcome, then they share in the responsibility. The people behind the legacy media efforts that whipped people into a frenzy? Responsible. And so on.

Facebook is not like a screwdriver, a simple, neutral tool that is occasionally used to harm. Facebook is an incredibly complex tool for connecting humans, a tool with all sorts of biases that shape the nature and velocity of social interaction.

People have known for decades that online communication systems enable harm. This was a well-understood fact long before Facebook existed. Facebook is morally responsible for that harm (as are the perps, etc, etc). Something they understand perfectly well because they do a lot to mitigate that harm while crowing about how socially responsible they are being.

You might disagree with most ethicists on this, as well as with Facebook itself. But you'll have an uphill struggle. Even the example you pick, vehicles, doesn't work, because car manufacturers have spent decades working to mitigate opportunities for the tools they create to cause harm. Now that cars are getting smarter, that harm reduction will include preventing drivers from running the cars into people.

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by thegrimmest on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:49PM (#32782567)
Responsibility is zero sum, or any conversations about it are meaningless. This is quite handily illustrated by your comment actually - where does it end? How much of an "inkling" must people have to carry responsibility? It doesn't sound like a question of fact exactly.

The only way to objectively agree about responsibility is to use an actor/agent model, where actors are entirely responsible for their actions, and only actions which directly harm others are considered. Otherwise we're discussing which butterflies are responsible for which hurricanes. I'm happy to be wrong here, but I just don't see an alternative framework that can realistically, objectively, draw actionable boundaries around responsibility for action. This by the way is the model that is used in common law.

Facebook being a complex tool strengthens my point. Should providers of complex tools be responsible for every possible use of them? Is it not possible to provide a complex tool "as is" without warranty? Wouldn't constraining tool makers in this way be fundamentally harmful?

> online communication systems enable harm... Facebook is morally responsible for that harm

Everything can be seen to "enable harm". Facebook being morally responsible is not a statement of fact, it's an opinion. Facebook's actions to mitigate are a) to evade/delay regulatory action, b) to maintain their public image or c) by a small group of activist employees. Only a) and b) align with their fiduciary duty to shareholders.

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by wpietri on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:53PM (#32782605)
> Responsibility is zero sum, or any conversations about it are meaningless.

That's incorrect. I'd suggest you start with Dekker's "Field Guide to 'Human Error", which looks at airplane safety. Airplanes are only as safe as they are because many different people and groups see themselves as responsible. Your supposedly "objective" model, if followed, would drastically increase deaths.

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by politician on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:55PM (#32782648)
"The National Transportation Safety Board is an independent federal agency charged by Congress with investigating every civil aviation accident in the United States and significant accidents in other modes of transportation — highway, marine, pipeline , and railroad."

The reason airplanes are safe is because the government is doing its job to regulate the space.

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by wpietri on Friday September 09, 2022 @02:07PM (#32782816)
That might be a reason, but it is not the reason.
Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by politician on Friday September 09, 2022 @02:30PM (#32783113)
Prior to the establishment of NTSB in the Air Commerce Act of 1926, aviation accidents were common [1]. Congress determined that it was necessary to establish an investigation and regulation framework immediately at the beginning of the era of commercial aviation and this has been enormously successful. Many times Congress does not act fast enough to prevent harms (meat packing, banking, pharmaceuticals), but when they do get around to doing their job safety improves. Individual companies must be compelled to act subordinate to federal or state regulatory frameworks, and to not act as vigilantes.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incident...

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by wpietri on Friday September 09, 2022 @06:27PM (#32785652)
Oh, so post hoc ergo propter hoc?

I'm not saying the NTSB isn't important. But it's far from the only reason that we have fewer crashes. Government regulation can be helpful in improving standards, but they set a minimum bar. Aviation's high levels of current safety are a collaboration between many, many people. Starting with individual pilots, engineers, and maintenance techs, going up through collaborative relationships, through companies and civil society organizations, and up through national and international regulatory agencies. All of these people are taking responsibility for safety.

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by politician on Friday September 09, 2022 @08:46PM (#32786576)
From your comments in this thread, I think that you believe that safety is a collective effort and that there is no single individual or entity directly responsible for enforcing a culture of accountability, is that right?

If so, how do you explain the catastrophic failures in construction, food safety, and banking prior to the top-down government oversight of those industries?

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by wpietri on Sunday September 18, 2022 @06:30PM (#32892096)
That is not in fact how I'd sum up my thoughts. "Enforcing a culture of accountability" is valuable, but neither necessary nor sufficient for safety depending on context. Food safety's an obvious example there. People still get sick from food. And plenty of restaurants and manufacturers would never cause illness if government oversight were to vanish.
Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by thegrimmest on Friday September 09, 2022 @02:00PM (#32782716)
Every aviation accident post mortem I've read assigns finds a finite list of causes and contributing factors. Each system/person has strong ownership that is responsible for making the recommended changes. These post mortem reports also explicitly do not find civil or criminal liability - that is a zero-sum process.
Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by wpietri on Friday September 09, 2022 @02:06PM (#32782808)
Liability is indeed strict zero sum. But you're confusing that with moral responsibility, which isn't.

They serve two different purposes. The former comes out of a zero-sum, adversarial setting where the goal is to figure out who pays for a past harm. The latter comes from a positive-sum collaborative setting where everybody is trying to improve future outcomes.

If I release a new product tomorrow, I'm responsible for what happens. As are the people who use it. But if somebody dies, then liability may be allocated only to one of us or to both in some proportion.

Again, read Dekker.

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by thegrimmest on Friday September 09, 2022 @02:12PM (#32782881)
"Responsibility" is semantically a bit nebulous, but seems to me much more related to "liability" than "continuous improvement". The question "Who is responsible?" reads a lot more like "Who is liable?" than "How did this bad thing happen?". If you release a new product, you may be accountable to your org for how it performs, but (IMO) you're not morally responsible for the actions of others using it. If your new product is a choking hazard you're not guilty of manslaughter.

"morally responsible" ~= "guilty"

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by sdoering on Friday September 09, 2022 @02:51PM (#32783346)
> If your new product is a choking hazard you're not guilty of manslaughter.

But you are still imho (morally) responsible for the deaths occurring out of the use of your product (this is where we would probably disagree). Even if you were not legally guilty.

I like another example that to me clarified the distinction between these concepts better.

Imagine one morning, you open your front door and find a baby having been placed there somewhen during the night. The child is still alive. You are not guilty in any way for the baby's fate, but now that you have seen it you are responsible for ensuring that it gets help. You would be guilty if you would allow it to freeze to death or similar.

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by thegrimmest on Friday September 09, 2022 @03:07PM (#32783540)
> You would be guilty if you would allow it to freeze to death or similar.

This significantly varies by jurisdiction, and isn't settled at all. I don't think being present makes you responsible either. Unappealing as it may seem, you should indeed be able to pull up a chair, have some popcorn, and watch the baby freeze. People should only bear obligations they explicitly consented to. I don't think anyone has the moral authority to impose such an involuntary obligation on anyone else.

Modelling society as a constrained adversarial relationship between fundamentally opposed and competing groups is more accurate than assuming there is "one team" that knows a fundamental "good" or "right" and that the rest of us just need to "see it". People who perform honour killing or preside over slavery are just as sure of their moral superiority as you are. What we need is a world where we can coexist peacefully, not one where we are all united under one religion of moral correctness.

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by politician on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:52PM (#32782600)
All communication systems enable harm, and more generally all systems that allow people to interact enable harm. In the US, the true responsibility for regulating harms lies with the duly elected government exercising its regulatory powers on behalf of the people. It does not lay with the unelected unaccountable members of Responsible Innovation Teams and Online Safety Teams. This form of tyranny persists because the majority of our representatives established their power bases before the advent of the Internet. Hopefully, in the next decade or two, we will be able to effectively subjugate and regulate the King Georges of the large social platforms.
Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by PuppyTailWags on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:31PM (#32782323)
There are laws put the onus on banks to proactively determine that their services aren't used to fund terrorism and multiple funky/opaque processes in banking specifically for that purpose. It kind of makes sense to me to have social media companies upheld to a similar standard that they are not used to organize terrorism or other war crimes.
Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by thegrimmest on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:36PM (#32782395)
I'm not sure I agree with these laws. They are very difficult to actually enforce to an objective standard. They also transfer the burden of law enforcement away from police departments and on to private organizations. What it translates to in practice is a bunch of (mostly irrelevant) mandatory training for employees, and an approval from an auditor who isn't very familiar with the business. I think police (and no one else) should do policing.
Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by PuppyTailWags on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:43PM (#32782492)
> What it translates to in practice is a bunch of (mostly irrelevant) mandatory training for employees, and an approval from an auditor who isn't very familiar with the business.

In the context of ensuring a bank doesn't transfer money to terrorists, this is completely wrong. Banks have a whole list of operations and processes, and failing this is enforced by actual jail time. This is why "know your customer" exists in banking. In the context of terrorism, there is no police enforcement regarding terrorists; often, we are talking military enforcement.

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by thegrimmest on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:56PM (#32782651)
Yes, but my point is that "transferring money to someone" is not a true crime. It doesn't have a victim. And yes, our governments should use military/diplomatic channels to fight terrorism directly - that's what they're for.
Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by PuppyTailWags on Friday September 09, 2022 @02:37PM (#32783202)
> Yes, but my point is that "transferring money to someone" is not a true crime. It doesn't have a victim.

This is also incorrect. Transferring money to a terrorist organization is a crime because countries have declared it illegal. Of course well-funded terrorists have victims and enablement of well-funded terrorism has clear victims.

And yes, the government is using military and diplomatic channels to fight terrorism directly-- by ensuring the resources they have access to are limited.

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by riversflow on Friday September 09, 2022 @02:36PM (#32783189)
You realize that other groups already do policing? IRS, EPA, OSHA, USPS, hell the secret service will get involved if you are forging currency.
Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by wpietri on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:45PM (#32782522)
There are two possible things you could mean by that.

One is that you think a lot of things just shouldn't be enforced, and that we should allow a lot more harm than we do now. Genocide?

The other is that you think we should have a lot more police to take over the harm-reducing regulatory actions now in place. That we should take the tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of social media moderators now working, but make them government employees and give them guns.

I can't decide which is more cartoonishly evil.

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by thegrimmest on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:54PM (#32782614)
I don't see why people working in an office need guns, but yes, enforcement of laws should be done by... law enforcement. This isn't too controversial really, if I make a credible threat to someone online, it's a criminal matter for the police. Just as if I had sent it in the mail. The same should be true for all other types of crime (fraud, money laundering, etc.). Police should (and do) conduct investigations and arrest offenders.

Social media moderators exist to protect the public image of the platform, and enforce community guidelines. They should not be burdened with law enforcement simply because we can't be arsed to do proper police work.

Re:Meta cuts Responsible Innovation Team by drc500free on Friday September 09, 2022 @01:46PM (#32782531)
Facebook could have chosen to be a completely neutral platform. They could have followed the ISP model, making Facebook another platform like email, RSS, or http. They just had to not make editorial decisions - leave the feed sorted by recency, and only remove illegal material. This is what safe harbor provisions assumed a company would do, allowing platforms who simply pass information between parties to avoid liability for that information.

But they wanted to be valued higher, so they explicitly chose to instead step into the editor's role and became responsible for the content on the platform.