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Re:Science is political, and that's a bad thing by Barrin92 on Saturday September 03, 2022 @12:33AM (#32698749)
One thing that's interesting is that the author doesn't really disagree about the political nature of science but rather looks for degrees of objectivity within what he acknowledges to be an already political field. This sets up a pretty big strawman because everyone agrees that, to pick his example, Lysenkoism is hogwash but that does little to address the contentious and serious political issues we grapple with, or the larger question of the proper nature of science.

I'd rather take up the second point, namely that the author almost takes it as a given that politicized science is bad. He puts forward this idea that science ought to be bureaucratic, ideally all scientists ought to be disinterested, universalist, apolitical monks who try to improve reproducibility, and so on.

To chain science to objectivity or to any kind of formulaic process may help everyone to agree on results, but it impedes the evolution of the scientific process (or better, processes) itself. There's nothing wrong with methods that in different places drift into different directions, because overall this makes for a more competitive field of methodologies. in fact something even as stupid as Lysenkoism serves a purpose, it's in itself part of the scientific map of ideas that need to be discovered before they could be disregarded.

So if you want to do insular corporate science, and someone wants to do militaristic science, and someone else wants to do cooperative 'objective science', all of this is valid and in fact useful, not despite, but because it creates conflict. To do ideological science is simply to run an experiment on the scientific method itself, it's what Feyerabend called 'epistemic anarchism' which he identified as the only thing that avoids limiting the potential of science.

Re:Science is political, and that's a bad thing by Cupertino95014 on Saturday September 03, 2022 @12:57AM (#32698886)
> To chain science to objectivity or to any kind of formulaic process ...

Sorry, there, but "objectivity" is not up for debate. Unless you subscribe to the woo-woo "different ways of knowing" crap.

The scientific method is not up for debate.

> To do ideological science is simply to run an experiment on the scientific method itself, it's what Feyerabend called 'epistemic anarchism' which he identified as the only thing that avoids limiting the potential of science.

"the potential of science": Berkeley nonsense. It's too bad he didn't just stick with Popper, who'll be around long after he's forgotten.

Re:Science is political, and that's a bad thing by bowsamic on Saturday September 03, 2022 @01:45AM (#32699095)
> Sorry, there, but "objectivity" is not up for debate.

It really obviously is up for debate, all the way from the fundamental question of whether objective knowledge is accessible at all, to things like the measurement problem in quantum mechanics

Re:Science is political, and that's a bad thing by Cupertino95014 on Saturday September 03, 2022 @11:22AM (#32702718)
> It really obviously is up for debate

"obviously" to you, I guess. Not to anyone else who realizes that life expectancy beyond 30 and absence of periodic famines with mass starvation is the result of objectivity.

> whether objective knowledge is accessible at all

How to make steel, plumb our houses, cure our bacterial infections, and bring A/C power to them is not knowledge that's "accessible to all." Most of us are happy that someone somewhere knows how to do those things. That's called "division of labor."

> whether objective knowledge is accessible at all

Kind of like the missing link in the fossil record which causes creationists to say "Look! Darwin was wrong!": quantum mechanics is the difficult-to-understand problem giving an easy out to people who don't believe in science anyway. Give it a rest.

Re:Science is political, and that's a bad thing by bowsamic on Saturday September 03, 2022 @11:54AM (#32703075)
Try reading my comment again more slowly. You based your response on an accidental misreading of what I said (you swapped "at all" to "to all").
Re:Science is political, and that's a bad thing by Cupertino95014 on Saturday September 03, 2022 @12:42PM (#32703587)
Ah, right, sorry.

"At all" is equally fatuous, though. The philosophical problem of whether objective knowledge is attainable was settled centuries ago. "How do you really know that Einstein's Relativity is valid?" is something that was settled when its predictions were borne out. If there are still questions about it, those will be settled by more science.

Re:Science is political, and that's a bad thing by bowsamic on Saturday September 03, 2022 @04:40PM (#32705865)
Idk, I side with Kant on this issue. Hegel has not convinced me yet. Maybe he has convinced you
Re:Science is political, and that's a bad thing by wzwy on Saturday September 03, 2022 @01:58AM (#32699168)
> To chain science to objectivity or to any kind of formulaic process may help everyone to agree on results, but it impedes the evolution of the scientific process (or better, processes) itself. There's nothing wrong with methods that in different places drift into different directions, because overall this makes for a more competitive field of methodologies. in fact something even as stupid as Lysenkoism serves a purpose, it's in itself part of the scientific map of ideas that need to be discovered before they could be disregarded.

Not chaining the scientific process to objectivity might improve the evolution of scientific processes, but it won’t really bring the world any good as of now. Objectivity, as nebulous as it can be sometimes, is reliable enough at aligning what we think the world is and what it actually is. Plus, having competitive methodologies would just create silos of scientists all working on their own “science is X” methods, with nothing binding them all together. And how would you get someone who believes ‘science should be X’ to listen to someone who believes ‘science should be Y’?

Maybe if we’re on a new planet, an ‘epistemic anarchy’ is worth trying, but not on Earth, where the objectivity train is full speed ahead on an Ouroboros track.

Re:Science is political, and that's a bad thing by seydor on Saturday September 03, 2022 @12:58AM (#32698889)
except that 'epistemic anarchism' is impossible today ,because 100% of the money is controlled by political organizations. Perhaps in feyrabends time the scientists were on paychecks instead of grant-schemes.