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Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by seanhunter on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:06AM (#32626409)
Short answer: they aren't. This is the musical equivalent of the fact that English has "guarantee" and "warranty" and they mean the same thing.

Long answer: they aren't. They are enharmonic equivalents in the vast majority of music that uses any of the conventional Western systems of tuning (as the author sort of goes out of their way to demonstrate in the article), and if you use or invent a different system then what you call the notes is kind of up to you since it's your system.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by midenginedcoupe on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:12AM (#32626425)
Correct answer: they are.

Not on a piano, but for all the other instruments with variable pitch (e.g. fretless strings, voice, trombones) they are. The enharmonic is useful information and we'll know whether to place that note just a little under or above its usual pitch to make the chord more in tune. We don't need to invent a new system to do this, we do it every day within the 12-tet system we already have.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by seanhunter on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:36AM (#32626516)
Theoretically yes but actually not really.

Most of the time, even if you're playing a variable pitch instrument you're going to be tuning to fixed pitch because you'll have at least one fixed pitch instrument (eg a piano) and if you don't you'll just sound out of tune.

In cases (eg a consort group or string quartet or something) where you're all variable pitch, you'll be tuning to each other and to the scale/key as appropriate to the music and whatever sounds good. You may well sweeten the thirds or widen the fifths a bit etc but that doesn't apply to this question here because you're really not going to see the enharmonic equivalents in the same piece the absolute vast majority of the time for stylistic reasons and if you ever did you would just be tuning to each other to make the vertical incidences sound good rather than thinking consciously of tuning a d-sharp one way and an e-flat another way.

Source: Have a degree and postgrad in music, used to be a professional double bass player[1], spouse has a degree and postgrad in music and teaches at 2 conservatoires in London as well as performing professionally, mostly early music in small consort groups where this sort of tuning thing comes up a lot.

[1] So yeah you can make the standard joke about what do double bass players know about tuning.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by davidnhouse on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:54AM (#32626592)
I guess it really depends on your instrument, taste, style and the group you are playing with. While studying Cello I actually had a lot of lessons with string quartet where we were analysing the score (harmony) for intonation and it happens quite often in modulations that enharmonic equivalents were used to distinguish whether a chord belongs to the old or the new harmony. And sometimes we really needed to make a difference between an e flat and a d sharp to match an open string or to get a desired tension.

For me the enharmonic equivalent is usually just a totally different harmony, so that is what I tune to. As a result they are quite different notes. I try to do that consciously - also while playing with fixed pitch instruments when possible (like the grandparent comment explained).

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by midenginedcoupe on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:44AM (#32626557)
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Even if playing with a fixed-pitch instrument, it only really sounds out of tune if they're playing the same notes. Which in the styles I play isn't an issue.

So I guess how often this happens in practice varies between styles and eras of music, which would make sense to me. I haven't ever done early music and know nothing about it (other than trombones used to be designed terribly and we now know how to make better ones ;)

Source: Also have a postgrad in music, probably from one of the conservatories your spouse teaches at, and still play trombone professionally.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by iainmerrick on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:14AM (#32626432)
They are enharmonic equivalents in the vast majority of music that uses any of the conventional Western systems of tuning (as the author sort of goes out of their way to demonstrate in the article)

I don’t think that’s correct -- they are identical in 12-TET, but all the other tuning systems either treat them as different notes, or attempt to compromise between the alternatives in a way that favours certain keys over others.

Maybe this is isn’t critical info for a lot of people, but it is important foundational knowledge if you’re a music student, or just interested in music theory.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by seanhunter on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:44AM (#32626554)
Actually most of the time if you're playing in a different tuning (eg quarter-comma meantone or pythagorean or whatever) where they would be different, you're playing a type of music where you exclusively would play one note or the other, so the fact that they are theoretically different doesn't arise.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by iainmerrick on Sunday August 28, 2022 @05:27AM (#32626968)
But then wouldn’t the fact that they’re theoretically the same also not arise?
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by grumpyprole on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:14AM (#32626431)
> Long answer: they aren't.

This is not true in general. It is only true for instruments that use the well tempered tuning, e.g. a piano. But for example, the violin and cello do not.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by hilbert42 on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:29AM (#32626485)
Right, the Circle of Fifths and the Pythagorean comma stop perfect alignment.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by boffinism on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:30AM (#32626488)
Today is a great day for you, because you get to learn something new! Specifically, that if you derive pitches of notes from harmonics, D sharp and E flat are slightly different pitches! There's actually a great article about exactly this you might want to read, and it's handily linked above.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by seanhunter on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:40AM (#32626539)
Today is a great day for you, because you get to feel good about yourself by being a first-order pedant and making basic assumptions about what I know and don't know and whether or not I've read the article.

I actually did read the article and even prior to that do know about deriving pitches from harmonics. What I posted was still correct in spite of the downvotes.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by yesseri on Sunday August 28, 2022 @04:23AM (#32626705)
The problem is you are incorrect. The deeper your knowledge of music theory, and the more experience you have with a capella choir music or certain instruments where they can be played differently, The more apparent this will become.

Trying to sing a D# in a B major chord the same way you would a Eb in a C minor won't be a great experience.

Most of the adjustments will happen automatically if you listen to your fellow singers and have experience. But they do happen.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by nine_k on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:39AM (#32626533)
Addition: when you choose a tonality in which you write a piece of music, it may define its standard set of flats and sharps, to simplify building chords using uniform rules. Because of this, it is convenient to name the same note using different names, relative to its neighbors.

Expansion: in non-tempered, natural tuning, such as often used when playing a violin, there are differences between some sharps and flats built from different notes, because natural harmonic intervals, based on frequency ratios like 3:2, do not split the frequency range in a completely log-linear way. This is why, say, G# and Ab may be not the same for purposes of pure natural harmony [1].

Equal temperation was invented to overcome this. J.S.Bach wrote a great showcase for it, Woll-Tepmeriertee Klavier, which involves harmonies and chord progressions that are hard or impossible to achieve with natural tuning without producing weird dissonances.

[1]: https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/WhyG.html

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by mrob on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:59AM (#32626608)
It's unknown whether Bach wrote the WTK for equal temperament (the modern standard) or for a well temperament (something that tempers all keys enough to be usable but does not make all keys sound identical).
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by jakzurr on Sunday August 28, 2022 @04:35AM (#32626765)
Whoa, I didn't know!

Now I'm wondering if I was told wrong 50 years ago, or if this is new research?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Well-Tempered_Clavier#We...

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by tripa on Sunday August 28, 2022 @08:54AM (#32628048)
50 years ago, unless you were studying at the highest levels of theoretical/historical music research, you'd likely have been taught wrong.

The “Bach standardized the world on 12TET” trope is old and enjoyable enough to make a good story that unspecialized music teachers have parroted along for generations.

We've got better access to information now. I've corrected music teachers on this specific topic in the past. Some gratefully accept. Some pull out the “but the teacher here is me card”, so I'm sure a few more generations are going to be needed.