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Re:Ridiculous vulnerability disclosure process with CrowdStr... by monocasa on Monday August 22, 2022 @04:35PM (#32556852)
> No, I was there at the inception of this term, and it was absolutely originally imagined as a way of controlling researchers and giving vendors more power over information about their products.

I mean, that half is the carrot to get vendors to play ball and actually fix their shitty code occasionally. It lets unaffiliated white hat security researchers who are just trying to get sec issues fixed actually get some focus time from the various sauron-esque eyes that are corporate attention by converting a 'bug report' into an 'impending pr nightmare bomb with a known timer'. It's a similar hack to complaining on twitter to deal with a marketing department instead of calling in to a customer service line that's just trying to get you to go away.

> It has pissed researchers off for decades, as it implies that not following the "responsible" process makes one per se "irresponsible".

The point of calling it responsible is to defend the researchers who have massively less power in the relationship against the vendors. Even now you'll see whitehats lambasted for eventually disclosing after a vendor dragged their ass. Beyond that, yeah you can't please everyone.

Re:Ridiculous vulnerability disclosure process with CrowdStr... by tptacek on Monday August 22, 2022 @05:31PM (#32557556)
As Google proved long ago, the only thing you have to do to get vendors to fix their shitty code is to set a fixed timeline for disclosure; just tell the vendor "please let us know when this is patched, and we're disclosing regardless after 60 days".

The point of calling it "responsible" has nothing to do with defending researchers; it's literally the opposite. The norms of "responsible" disclosure were absolutely not the norms of vulnerability reearchers of the time. The term was invented back in the early aughts by @stake, then the largest software security consultancy in the world (my company, Matasano, was essentially a spin-off of @stake; one of my cofounders was an @stake cofounder).

This is one of those things, like "Zero Trust Networking", where people read the term, (reasonably) believe they understand what the words mean, and then axiomatically derive the concept. But, no, the concept has its own history and its own meaning; the words have little to do with it (except that here, it's especially obvious what's problematic about the words themselves).

The industry has largely moved away from "Responsible" disclosure to "Coordinated" disclosure, for all the reasons I've given here. Even CERT, the most conservative organization in software security, uses the new term now.

Later edit

This originally read The norms of "responsible" disclosure were absolutely not the norms of "Responsible Disclosure", which was a typo.

Re:Ridiculous vulnerability disclosure process with CrowdStr... by monocasa on Monday August 22, 2022 @06:14PM (#32557977)
The use of 'responsible' wrt vulnerability disclosure is thought to at least go back to 2001's essay "It’s Time to End Information Anarchy", and I know that the adjective 'responsible' was being thrown around wrt vulnarability disclosure before that. @stake did not invent the term in the early aughts. https://web.archive.org/web/20011109045330if_/http://www.mic...

Yes, CERT has moved using CVD, but I argue that's because of their conservationism. They don't want to rock the boat and tend towards vendor friendly, neutral language. That makes sense for their niche.

And just throwing it out there that the older term that's actively being erased because its implications are unfriendly to entrenched interests isn't the "Orwellian" one.

Re:Ridiculous vulnerability disclosure process with CrowdStr... by tptacek on Monday August 22, 2022 @06:30PM (#32558105)
I'm sorry, but I think you're just kind of making things up here to perpetuate an unproductive argument. By "conservative", I meant that CERT is broadly anti-disclosure in all forms, which I think is a claim that pretty much anyone working in vulnerability research would recognize.

Here's the 2002 I-D that Weld worked on with Steve Christey standardizing the term. It's notable for being roughly contemporaneous with @stake firing Dan Geer over, as I recall, somehow alienating Microsoft, one of @stake's larger clients.

https://cve.mitre.org/data/board/archives/2002-02/msg00026.h...

Your link, for what it's worth, doesn't use the term at all. But even if it had, it wouldn't change anything.

Just to keep this on track: your claim was that "Coordinated Disclosure" --- the near-universal standard term for what used to be called "Responsible Disclosure" --- is an "Orwellian re-imagining". Leaving aside the fact that there's nothing intrinsically "Orwellian" about renaming something, the fact remains: "Responsible Disclosure" was researcher-hostile and patronizing, and has been chucked out the window by almost everybody who matters in vulnerability research.

We've managed to hash out a hot topic from, like, 2012 on this thread, which is great, it's progress, we move forward bit by bit here on HN, just like Joel Spolsky once said; "fire and motion". But we can probably be done now.

Re:Ridiculous vulnerability disclosure process with CrowdStr... by akerl_ on Monday August 22, 2022 @05:08PM (#32557297)
What's an example of a researcher being lambasted for disclosing a vulnerability to the public?
Re:Ridiculous vulnerability disclosure process with CrowdStr... by monocasa on Monday August 22, 2022 @05:30PM (#32557543)
The example I generally use is when Peter Bright went on a several month set of tirades while a staff writer for arstechnica lambasting project zero disclosing a microsoft vulnerability after the disclosure window was up. Hard to find the source though now that his articles have been scrubbed ever since he got caught trying to diddle some children. : \ In the comments, most of the devops/sysadmin community of arstechnica took his side that you shouldn't disclose publicly at all, missing the point that others might be actively exploiting the same vulnerability. You routinely see the same sentiment even on HN (thankfully in the minority now), missing the point that while finding exploits is hard work and generally takes very smart individuals, that's not to the point of being able to assume that someone else who wears a slightly darker hat didn't figure out the same bug.
Re:Ridiculous vulnerability disclosure process with CrowdStr... by tptacek on Monday August 22, 2022 @05:34PM (#32557599)
I don't much care what Peter Bright thinks or said a decade ago. Peter Bright isn't a security researcher, or on a vendor security team. He's just some guy (or, was some guy) on Twitter. Project Zero, meanwhile, is the global gold standard for coordinated vulnerability disclosure.

Lots of people with better reputations than Bright have publicly lobbied against disclosure of any sort. Bruce Schneier is a great example of this; if you're an old industry head, Marcus Ranum is another name here. The point isn't that everybody agrees with me about "Responsible Disclosure"; it's that everybody who matters does.

Re:Ridiculous vulnerability disclosure process with CrowdStr... by monocasa on Monday August 22, 2022 @05:51PM (#32557756)
He was one of the most important tech journalists in the world when he was saying this stuff; his fame came before his twitter account. He was also functionally a mouthpiece for Microsoft PR, available to run hit pieces on situations that were otherwise embarrassing for Microsoft.

And project zero puts an emphasis on disclosure, not coordination. When the ticker runs out they nearly always disclose, regardless of where coordination is at. That's what Peter Bright was ultimately complaining about; they disclosed like a week before one of the relevant patch tuesdays.

Like I've said, the primary point isn't the coordination. That's the carrot to get the vendors to play game on a sane schedule because otherwise the vendor holds all the cards.

Re:Ridiculous vulnerability disclosure process with CrowdStr... by tptacek on Monday August 22, 2022 @06:08PM (#32557921)
I simply don't care what Peter Bright says, and neither does anybody else in the field. We're now arguing for the sake of arguing. It's plainly correct that the term "Responsible Disclosure" is disfavored, and disfavored for the reasons I say it is. I didn't come up with any of these things; I just work in vulnerability research (or used to) and know what the stories are.