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Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by jononomo on Thursday August 11, 2022 @05:18PM (#32431833)
Yeah, the only way to make it work is to be an exercise nut. In order to get the nutrition your body needs from a vegan diet you will need to consume more calories than you would consume on a carnivore diet. So you need to exercise to burn these extra calories off and maintain that “fit vegan” look — although eventually it will catch up with you.

As for “cruel and polluting”, that’s also a bigger problem with agriculture — because of the clear-cutting, the insecticides, the secondary effects of insecticides on birds, all the agricultural run-off, and so forth.

You need to think more critically than “did this piece of food on my plate once have a face?” Just because you’re eating soybeans doesn’t mean you’re not killing animals — it is just indirect and even more ecologically devastating.

Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by jchoca on Thursday August 11, 2022 @05:38PM (#32432033)
If we care about collateral damage done to animals due to plant farming, then we should still stop eating animals due to the efficiency loss in calories when converting plants to animal calories. 70% of soy is grown for animal feed, and so is something like 50% of corn. Don't tell me all cows just need to be grazing all the time. There just isn't enough land for that. Even assuming 100% of our calories aren't coming from meat.

The carnivore diet simply isn't sustainable. Suggesting that's something the entire human race should be doing is lunacy. I'd wager all these people who feel good on the carnivore diet feel that way because they've stopped consuming processed carbs and other garbage. Meanwhile that diet and keto are associated with increase in all-cause mortality.

Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by jononomo on Thursday August 11, 2022 @06:15PM (#32432477)
You said "that diet and keto are associated with an increase in all-cause mortality" -- in fact, I believe the opposite to be the case. Check out The Big Fat Surprise by Nina Teicholz to learn more about nutrition science.
Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by neuralRiot on Thursday August 11, 2022 @08:02PM (#32433321)
I would be inclined to believe thousands of proper scientific studies than a journalist lobbied by the meat and restaurant councils but that’s just me.

http://www.weightymatters.ca/2015/09/saturated-fats-conflict...

Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by jononomo on Friday August 12, 2022 @12:46PM (#32441036)
Yeah, the vegans really hate her and are trying to discredit her -- but I don't take vegans seriously.
Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by jononomo on Friday August 12, 2022 @02:05AM (#32435147)
This is why I want to write my book called "The Carnivore Panacea" -- because there is so much disinformation out there on diet and many people are just slack-jawed when they hear that some study is associated with the Harvard School of Public Health.

Let me assure you that they should be slack-jawed, but not at the rigor of the publication, but at the fact that anything from such an ideologically driven vegan clown show would be considered worthy of publication.

Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqEhPFIlH3U -- some of the wisest words ever spoken. Take them to heart -- and then pray.

Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by jononomo on Thursday August 11, 2022 @06:14PM (#32432470)
We can't eat grass
Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by neuralRiot on Thursday August 11, 2022 @06:37PM (#32432678)
Yes we can and it is delicious (wheatgrass)
Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by lock-the-spock on Thursday August 11, 2022 @05:56PM (#32432243)
I've been veggie for 10+ years without being an exercise nut and am in top health, rarely sick, best skin of my life, etc. I don't have any of the issues you mention, so I would take a guess that your previous diet was not a balanced one but largely empty carbohydrates, which leads to all the issues you mention. Now mine is anecdotal data, as is your one year experience. If you do want to give serious diet recommendations try at least a few others first - be it Mediterranean, Indian, vegan, traditional Filipino, ...I'd bet you will find that you can and do feel great with many of these as long as you drop the processed crap (essentially anything produced by PepsiCo, Kellogg's or the big fast food chains).

As the other commenter points out, a pure meat diet is not sustainable at scale and you'll find plenty of hints that it isn't healthy (eg red meat associated with colon cancer). It requires huge feed input, produces vast amounts of suffering and has a huge climate impact. In other words: even if it were the best choice health-wise (which is rather unlikely as humans are evolved omnivores) it is still an immoral and selfish choice.

P S.: No ketchup? Mayonaise? Marinade? It seems to be rather unlikely anyone is that purely meat-based...

Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by jononomo on Thursday August 11, 2022 @06:14PM (#32432468)
I've been thinking about diet for a lot longer than just a couple of years and in fact I have tried being a vegetarian. I also grew up in India, so I'm familiar with their diet.

You say you've been "veggie" for 10+ years without being an exercise nut, but "veggie" is unclear to me -- were you vegetarian or were you vegan?

There is obviously a massive difference between being vegetarian and being vegan because you can be a vegetarian and eat a 100% animal-based diet if you limit yourself to eggs and dairy, which I consider super-duper-nutritious animal-based foods.

I think almost anyone could eat a dozen eggs a day and thrive. Eggs are a super-food.

Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by lock-the-spock on Thursday August 11, 2022 @07:11PM (#32432969)
I am vegetarian but try to stay on the vegan side whenever I can and avoid eggs quite diligently. But note the article you responded to is about both so the question is irrelevant.

What strikes me however is that you very selectively respond to a few points, e.g. in my comment the most non-substantial one

> As the other commenter points out, a pure meat diet is not sustainable at scale and you'll find plenty of hints that it isn't healthy (eg red meat associated with colon cancer). It requires huge feed input, produces vast amounts of suffering and has a huge climate impact. In other words: even if it were the best choice health-wise (which is rather unlikely as humans are evolved omnivores) it is still an immoral and selfish choice.

Even the article quoted by the guardian points out the many higher mortality risks associated with meat eating over a vegetarian diet - so clearly a health choice is not in favour of meat and 100% not in favour of a meat only diet.

Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by jononomo on Thursday August 11, 2022 @07:35PM (#32433145)
I can't reply to every point that everyone makes -- I've been commenting on this thread for quite a while now. But I'll do my best!

In fact, I am so convinced that the carnivore diet would be a panacea for the world if we would just do it at scale that I am thinking of writing a book about it, which I would title "The Carnivore Panacea".

The association between red meat and colon cancer is "an association". Note that in nutrition science it is extraordinarily hard to demonstrate "causation" rather than "an association" because to demonstrate causation you would need the kind of double blind, placebo-controlled trials that are basically impossible to administer in this field.

Most nutrition science relies on people remembering what they ate last month, or feeding people in a controlled setting for a few days or weeks rather than the few months or years that would be necessary.

So, to put it bluntly, I am absolutely certain that eating red meat does not cause colon cancer -- but I am aware that this is a major talking point that has caught hold in the culture.

As for the "suffering" that eating meat causes, it is nothing in comparison to the suffering that eating plants causes, so I think eating meat wins easily on that count.

Note that some people think that if there are only plants on the plate of food that they are eating from, then this means that no animals were harmed to bring them that plate of food. For these people it is just a matter of pointing out the ecological costs associated with agriculture:

* the ten-thousand-acre mono-crop farms the destroy habitats,

* the massive quantities of insecticides that kill all the insects

* the secondary effect on the bird population that has plummeted due to the insecticide use

* the transportation costs (meat is more likely to be local than plant-based food)

* the impact on the health care sector (a major contributor to global warming) from the obesity, cancer, diabetes, and heart disease

All of the above can all be summed up by picturing the vultures that circle behind those combines on those massive mono-crop farms -- vultures because they can devour all the baby deer and little foxes and ground-nesting birds and little mice that live in the fields and get chewed up by the combine -- because when the harvest time comes, death comes with it.

Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by the_only_law on Thursday August 11, 2022 @07:37PM (#32433156)
> I am so convinced that the carnivore diet would be a panacea for the world

Are you trying to weaken your argument?

Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by jononomo on Friday August 12, 2022 @01:41PM (#32441749)
Not at all - imagine a world without chronic disease, without obesity, and with a 90% reduction in mental health disorders -- and then have the epiphany that the dietary approach leading to this world would also be better for the environment.
Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by neuralRiot on Thursday August 11, 2022 @08:10PM (#32433381)
All those points are invalidated because meat is inefficient, it takes more crops, more water, more pesticides, more “crop deaths” to cultivate food for livestock than for direct consumption. The romanticized picture of the cow pleasantly grazing in an open field is an unsustainable fantasy.
Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by jononomo on Thursday August 11, 2022 @09:33PM (#32433875)
There were herds of bison on the American plains during the early 1800s that were so large it would take a week for the herd to walk past a campsite. I was reading the memoirs of Ulysses S Grant a couple years ago and he reports that when he was on a military expedition in Texas a couple of decades before the American Civil War, they came across a herd of wild horses that was so large that they could climb to the top of a nearby hill and see the herd stretching from horizon to horizon on either side.

My question for you is: what were all these animals eating, since we were not cultivating food for them?

Also, why do you think cows don't graze in open fields? Maybe you should take a drive through Lancaster County, PA, sometime. I hear there are cows out west, too.

Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by neuralRiot on Thursday August 11, 2022 @06:35PM (#32432665)
Veggie foods need more energy to be digested so the net calories are lower than the intake even being negative for some. Livestock is fed 80% of the global soy production, rainforests are burnt to plant soy for that purpose, meat production releases methane and its manure lagoons leech into groundwater and end up in the sea, 82% of the antibiotics produced are administered to livestock, many are feed food waste including wrapping (this is allowed) so it’s not surprising than more than 73% of the analyzed meat and dairy products contain microplastics. As of 2014 there was about 23 billion chickens and 1.5 billion cattle around the world to give you some perspective there’s less than 8 billion people in the world. So we need to be more objective on where is the real ecological disaster.
Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by jononomo on Thursday August 11, 2022 @07:19PM (#32433042)
Would you be happy eating meat if it was raised in an ethical and environmentally-sustainable way?
Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by neuralRiot on Thursday August 11, 2022 @07:33PM (#32433127)
There’s no ethical or “humane” way to kill a sentient being just for the pleasure of tasting its flesh. Is it more ethical to kill a free person than a slave?
Re:Vegetarian women more likely to fracture hips in later life by jononomo on Thursday August 11, 2022 @07:37PM (#32433157)
I think that's checkmate, I win!