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Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by littlecranky67 on Thursday August 11, 2022 @03:14AM (#32422491)
My personal stance on why Blockchain is often not required is that a core feature of the Blockchain - decentralization( based on a lack of trust on a single entity) is not needed in the business world. In business, trust is an essential factor by which you pick your partners and suppliers, and often businesses reject cheaper offers in favour of business partners they know and trust based on past cooperations.
Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by rich_sasha on Thursday August 11, 2022 @05:42AM (#32423444)
The various crypto meltdowns of the recent years show that crypto actually involves lots and lots of trust.

From the frontend doing what it really says, through intricacies of how the smart contracts work, manual control over wallets, and trusting the business logic.

Transaction security is kind of the last thing to worry about.

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by cannabis_sam on Thursday August 11, 2022 @11:55AM (#32427650)
I agree, but none of these trust issues are solved by using blockchai based solutions…
Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by cannabis_sam on Friday August 12, 2022 @01:18PM (#32441442)
Hilariously this is a business opportunity, far bigger than any crypto startup being funded by yc…
Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by janekm on Thursday August 11, 2022 @03:59AM (#32422808)
There are scenarios where a multi-party ledger can be useful in business... Think about a logistics chain where everybody needs to know that a record wasn't modified in retrospect.

But then you only need a mini-blockchain along the lines of what IBM calls blockchain, you may have a few industry players and say a customs agency agree to sign the entries and then there will be no dispute about whether an entry was signed on a particular day. Energy cost of that is negligible. (and you don't need to put the actual transaction info into the ledger... just the signature is enough so everyone on the chain can confirm later that it wasn't modified).

All of this is also pretty ancient tech by now... IBM just basically jumped on the blockchain branding bandwagon I'd say...

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by TomSwirly on Thursday August 11, 2022 @04:37AM (#32423046)
You don't need even a "mini-blockchain" - you just need a boring old 1970s vintage Merkle Tree.
Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by majewsky on Thursday August 11, 2022 @08:21AM (#32424606)
> Think about a logistics chain where everybody needs to know that a record wasn't modified in retrospect.

Why not just have event payloads signed by a neutral fiduciary?

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by lbriner on Thursday August 11, 2022 @04:05AM (#32422845)
You could already do this without blockchain, the problem is adoption.

If I create a leger that requires basic crypto-signing, I would need everyone to agree to use the system, perhaps try and make it the only system so there is an incentive to use it - and that is the difficult part.

Have some blockchain doesn't solve the problem of how you try and get people to adopt it.

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by littlecranky67 on Thursday August 11, 2022 @10:38AM (#32426377)
a very simple timestamp hashing service (such as defined in RFC3161) will do that job.
Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by hansworst on Thursday August 11, 2022 @03:26AM (#32422571)
Isn’t this an argument for blockchains? If you could rely on blockchains instead of trusting based on past cooperation, you could save money and thus add more value. Obviously blockchains have a cost, but in some cases the cost savings you could achieve may outweigh that.
Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by josephg on Thursday August 11, 2022 @03:39AM (#32422659)
Most of the ways businesses need to trust each other can’t be captured by rules on the blockchain. It’s things like - I trust my supplier won’t go bankrupt. I trust my supplier will deliver work of a consistent quality. I trust that if I have some problem, I can call someone on the phone and they’ll take my call, listen to my problem and take responsibility for fixing the issue.

How would you express any of this stuff on a blockchain in a useful way? We could have “blockchain yelp” but it’s hard to protect that against fake reviews. And seeing a mix of reviews isn’t enough to know if you should go into business with someone.

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by Eji1700 on Thursday August 11, 2022 @04:02AM (#32422824)
Some of the "better" arguments i've seen are obsoleting/maintaining anything that is quasi public record. Think all sorts of land/legal transactions where it's basically "once x and y and z have said yes, process transaction from x to z"

Codifying ANY logic is doable, but especially simple logic like that has it's upsides in how many middle men it can help eliminate, and the TONS of human error that comes with it.

In the examples you're giving, you could have codified "here's what happens if the supplier cannot complete the transaction" or "here's what happens if parties cannot agree on the quality of the work" or a zillion other things that already exist.

You did, however, hit on the big one, that when something goes wrong or something is misunderstood or somehow someone needs to talk to a human...well good fucking luck.

The obvious downside of all the decentralization mantra is that of course it means you're liable for your own mistakes, which is just NOT a business model that ever works. That said, the crypto space has gotten massively more centralized (because it turns out market forces still don't give a fuck about your philosophy), and I think the future of the tech lies somewhere else entirely, where end users functionally never interact with it.

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by namdnay on Thursday August 11, 2022 @04:52AM (#32423153)
> Some of the "better" arguments i've seen are obsoleting/maintaining anything that is quasi public record. Think all sorts of land/legal transactions where it's basically "once x and y and z have said yes, process transaction from x to z"

The validity of any transaction can only be determined and guaranteed by the state, so honestly just having the state host a central database seems much easier

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by josephg on Thursday August 11, 2022 @07:27AM (#32424103)
I’d be quite happy seeing the state host a signed, public append only log for records like this. Basically blockchain without the mining. Anyone can subscribe, but only the state (or anyone paying a nominal fee per byte) can write.

It could be used for notarising contracts, recording crop yields, declaring bankruptcies, listing property sales - you name it. Pay $1/kb and your data will be stored forever.

Anyone can replicate the changes to their own computer to validate the hashes and prove the government isn’t changing anything.

I think that would capture 90% of the value of a blockchain with almost none of blockchain’s downsides and it would be trivially easy to implement.

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by namdnay on Thursday August 11, 2022 @10:26AM (#32426152)
yup, basically Git + a PR submission system
Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by Karrot_Kream on Thursday August 11, 2022 @03:54AM (#32422768)
Yes blockchain based tokens (so anything but pure currency) always runs into issues when they meet the physical world. Oracles are just trust anchors and as you say there's no way to avoid the reality that physical auditing is necessary to ensure clean exchange of goods and services. OpenBazaar has run into numerous issues over the years and it's been out there as a marketplace before Ethereum ever existed; they all stem from the general difficulty of interfacing with the physical world.

This isn't the case for digital only assets though. There are certainly much fewer digital assets people use than physical ones, but they're there. Domain names, forum membership, entry gates, game skins, etc. How many times have you entered a community and thought it would be great to have a tiny bar to contribution, like a small membership fee, enough to weed out spammers and young children?

This is aside from enterprise oriented chains like Ripple that just use chains help facilitate regular business.

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by zmmmmm on Thursday August 11, 2022 @05:03AM (#32423216)
wouldn't you just put all those things into a contract and put the contract into the blockchain along with their signature as proof?

You seem to be arguing that blockchain has to magically solve real world physical problems, but paper contracts don't do that either. You still end up in court. Its just a question of how you are substantiating they really signed the contract.

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by adament on Thursday August 11, 2022 @05:35AM (#32423395)
No GP is arguing that since the blockchain cannot solve any of the mentioned problems, it does not provide any real benefit. The dispute for companies today are seldomly about whether they signed a contract (the part the blockchain could help settle - though you still need to provide the legal entity -> cryptographic key mapping) but how to interpret the contract and align the legal world(words on a page) with the real world (widgets delivered, machines broken, etc.).

If the problem was about enforcing a signature, you do not need a blockchain, each party to a contract can just store the cryptographic signature themselves or with one or more trusted custodians. That is a fundamental feature of cryptographic signatures not blockchains. And then you need some mapping from legal entities to public keys, but this might as well be a centralized database run by the government (potentially outsourced to a private contractor), after all in many jurisdictions the government already keeps a list of legal entities and metadata about them.

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by yumaikas on Thursday August 11, 2022 @03:33AM (#32422613)
> If you could rely on blockchains instead of trusting based on past cooperation

What about blockchains would make them an effective stand-in for building trust over time? One is a ledger, the other is an interpersonal relationship, and the two really are not the same.

If I'm going to take a risk, I'd rather take a risk where there's some human expectation of managing bumps in the road, and which has some means of redress if sufficient malice is involved, instead of one where a smart contract bug means that I've lost a lot of money.

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by konschubert on Thursday August 11, 2022 @03:33AM (#32422612)
The blockchain can prove that I bought the car and own it now. But that has never been the problem.

Trust is still required because I need to trust the seller that the car isn't a lemon and he didn't put explosives into the back seat.

The blockchain solves none of that.

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by jstimpfle on Thursday August 11, 2022 @03:52AM (#32422754)
Also, did you receive a car in the first place.
Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by yenwel on Thursday August 11, 2022 @03:39AM (#32422653)
blockchain could be used to put reputation systems on them.
Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by ben_w on Thursday August 11, 2022 @04:20AM (#32422935)
Reinventing existing trust mechanisms but with an extra (computationally expensive) layer of things that can go wrong is the opposite of an improvement.
Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by bfung on Thursday August 11, 2022 @03:53AM (#32422763)
How would that work?

We have Yelp, Google reviews, Amazon reviews… how would something like that work on a blockchain/ledger and not be gamed just like the review systems we have now?

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by Mordisquitos on Thursday August 11, 2022 @03:59AM (#32422805)
And how would we avoid this reputation blockchain from being populated by maliciously deceptive information, be it positive reputation promoted by the business through bribed or fake customers, or negative reputation promoted by unethical competitors?
Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by konschubert on Thursday August 11, 2022 @10:37AM (#32426369)
I see no reason why a reputation system needs distributed consensus. It needs asymmetric encryption (signatures), but not a blockchain.
Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by atoav on Thursday August 11, 2022 @03:45AM (#32422699)
I as a business would not want to work with people who do not trust me to fulfill my (e.g. contractual or financial) obligations.

If they have to trust me to pay them, do my job, fulfill my contract anyways, what value is there in some sort of digital system that technically decentralizes trust, but where the other side still has to trust me I did nothing malicious with it?

If anything all that the developments in cryptocurrencies show is that a technically trustworthy infrastructure can (and will) be used for nefarious means. That means even if you were to use such an infrastructure you'd still have some interface to the real world, where people cannot pay, not do their job, do their job in a way you did not agree, etc. So you still would have to protect your interest in the traditional way and you'd still have to trust the other side.

So using a blockchain is just like using a database and giving up a certain amount of control over it.

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by fabian2k on Thursday August 11, 2022 @03:34AM (#32422617)
How would a blockchain replace trust in a supplier's ability to deliver on time and with the right quality?
Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by rullelito on Thursday August 11, 2022 @03:32AM (#32422602)
Bitcoin can't make up for lack of trust in your business partner.
Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by HelloNurse on Thursday August 11, 2022 @04:06AM (#32422852)
Given a set of parties that I trust and I am willing to do business with, why should I spend money and technical resources, and give up privacy, for the privilege of using a blockchain to state to the world that I trust them? Why should I embrace a dependency on a crypto provider, or trust someone because the crypto provider's blockchain says that I should?

EDIT: replaced "cryptoscammer" with "crypto provider" for generality.

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by oleganza on Thursday August 11, 2022 @03:28AM (#32422584)
That's a false dichotomy. Anyone would choose someone they trust most out of other need-to-trust counterparties. If there was an alternative to not use any unnecessary counterparty at all - that would be even better. E.g. if you transfer Bitcoin from country A to country B you know for sure that it will arrive without any intermediate bank inserting their opinion in the process and causing surprising delays.
Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by knorker on Thursday August 11, 2022 @04:21AM (#32422940)
Some of the delays are effectively by law, so what you're really saying is "without any laws I may be breaking inserting their opinion, and any pesky police causing surprising delays".

Reminds me of how GWB said that it would be much easier to be president if he were a dictator.

Yeah, I bet! But despite that it's a terrible idea.

Banks don't cause delays because they want to. And it's not a technical problem. Worth repeating: Delays in bank transfers is NOT a technical problem.

All these cryptocurrency "solutions" are trying to tear down a fence they have no idea why it's there. Turns out it was put up over centuries to solve actual societal problems.

People should work on improving the fence instead of thinking it should be torn down to be replaced by nothing.

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by oleganza on Wednesday August 17, 2022 @04:51AM (#32493901)
You are right, that's not a technical problem and Bitcoin is not a technical solution either — that's a social game of "let's make ourselves some new money without built-in constraints".

Then you would need to add some constraints over it for security, but the key difference would be that it's an open market: you can invent one solution, I can invent another and people will be free to choose between them or nothing at all.

When your money comes with some regulatory framework built-in, there is no much room for any choices in that respect and more temptation for all kinds of bureaucrats to abuse their power.

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by knorker on Wednesday August 17, 2022 @06:13AM (#32494347)
> but the key difference would be that it's an open market

It's not really, though.

Banking is also an open market. You could already start a bank, and some people do. But it comes with a bunch of red tape.

But you can't just say "this is blockchain, so red tape is not required". That's up to the government of the countries you operate in.

And if it looks like a bank (or financial institution), quacks like a monetary transfer or financial product, then why would it not get customers like one, and not be regulated as one?

> people will be free to choose between them or nothing at all.

This was already the case. Wall street invents financial products all the time. Credit default swaps, anyone?

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by afiori on Thursday August 11, 2022 @05:47AM (#32423478)
> Delays in bank transfers is NOT a technical problem

Often they are, but they also already have practical and common solutions

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by knorker on Thursday August 11, 2022 @06:51AM (#32423878)
Yeah we could give deeper into this question. Yes, the US has not adopted the technical solutions for quick (usually essentially instant) and free payments that Europe has.

And Europe isn't perfect either. E.g. in Sweden bank transfers are only quick and easy on weekdays. But then again nobody uses bank transfers because Swish is instant and 24/7, and all banks support it.

So yes, it's a technical problem that a transfer is not instant, but the "surprising delays" mentioned by previous commenters are not due to any of that.

Or do you have in mind technical solutions for improving AML/KYC handling that would reduce legit transfers getting delayed?

Sure, systems (legal and technical) can always be improved, but "surprising delay" is a problem from law, not technology. So bypassing it with technology just means (de facto) breaking the law.

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by afiori on Thursday August 11, 2022 @07:35AM (#32424174)
What I meant is that many banks do not offer fast payments/transfers as a service, but they could do it if they wanted.

The most common complaint I hear is that bank transfers take a long time to settle as a default at a protocol level, not that law enforcement manually interferes with them.

The second most common complaint I hear is that sometimes the transfer is impossible.

For the first there are solutions, newer SEPA transfer can complete in seconds because fraud checking is done faster; this requires some kind of widespread cooperation between banks and governments. For the second complaint there are often no (legal) solutions.

Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by knorker on Thursday August 11, 2022 @01:19PM (#32428949)
Yeah this is what I meant about the US being a bit technically behind, but this is not the same as the "surprise" delays referred to.
Re:There aren't that many uses for blockchains by hef19898 on Thursday August 11, 2022 @03:38AM (#32422646)
Banks do provide much more valuable services than just processing money transfers so.