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Re:'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg so... by marcus_holmes on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @12:17PM (#32414456)
The difference between working from home and working in the office is not how many hours of productive work you do, it's in what you do with the rest of the day.

Every single study done on it shows that creative staff (including engineers) are more productive working where they are less disturbed, that open-plan offices are the least productive environment, etc. So it's utterly unsurprising that people get more productive working from home and can do 8 hour's office work in 5 hours at home.

But even aside from that, if you can complete your work in 6 hours, but can't leave the office for another 2-4 hours because of the office culture, then you'll spend those 2-4 hours doing random stuff in the office. If you're at home, you can leave Slack on and go do something useful. It's not only that WFH gives people more time, it's that it removes the "you must pretend to be busy for 25% of your workday" restriction.

As always, a negative reaction to WFH is a sign of bad management culture. Good managers are happy that their people are getting more done and happier about it. Bad managers see "they're only doing 20 hours a week if they work from home!" and are angry about it.

Re:'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg so... by frenchyatwork on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @12:29PM (#32414650)
> Every single study done on it shows that creative staff (including engineers) are more productive working where they are less disturbed, that open-plan offices are the least productive environment, etc.

Do you have any specific sources on hand (preferably a good meta-study)? I've heard this claim a lot, and I'd like it to be true, but I've never seen it sourced. Also, I feel like it could depend a lot on the individual, but anecdote is not data.

And yes, open-plan offices truly suck.

Re:'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg so... by marcus_holmes on Thursday August 11, 2022 @10:36AM (#32426336)
Sorry, I don't. I did have it when we were discussing productivity during my MBA, and the lecturer gave us a bunch of references for the studies that have been done, but that was a few years ago and they're probably out of date now.

It's one of those well-known truths ("diverse teams are more productive" is another one) that's well-supported by the literature and generally agreed on, but still comes up as "needs citation" every time. I should go dig out the citation so I can avoid this when I bring it up ;)

Re:'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg so... by jollyllama on Wednesday August 10, 2022 @12:26PM (#32414598)
So is it a question of the work day or where you work from?
Re:'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg so... by marcus_holmes on Thursday August 11, 2022 @10:32AM (#32426272)
I'm not sure I understand your question completely, but if I understand it right, this is more a question of "are you hired to do 40 hours a week at work, or are you hired to perform a set of tasks?".

The objections to WFH tend to come from managers who manage by insisting their employees do at least 40 hours in the office each week, rather than measuring actual output and productivity, because it's easier. A similar question is: If you're super efficient and get your work done quickly, can you end your day early and go home?

Re:'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg so... by jollyllama on Thursday August 11, 2022 @10:43AM (#32426468)
Sorry, let me clarify.

In your GP comment, you say "But even aside from that, if you can complete your work in 6 hours, but can't leave the office for another 2-4 hours because of the office culture, then you'll spend those 2-4 hours doing random stuff in the office. If you're at home, you can leave Slack on and go do something useful."

I think I agree with your second paragraph entirely.

To me, two issues are being conflated here: the location of the work (wfh vs office) and the length of the work day. The benefits of wfh you are describing sound like they could more or less also come from a 6 hour work day. Ignoring commute time (it's an issue, but just for simplicity's sake). You'd be able to do useful things around your house just the same if you were in an office for 6 hours and able to go home.

Some would describe what you're saying as "slacking" for those hours outside the six, but I don't see it that way. Instead, wfh has become a socially acceptable vehicle for a shorter work day. It allows workers to achieve a shorter work day while bypassing those arguments. I think productive discussion around the issue is impossible until these issues are disentangled.

Re:'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg so... by marcus_holmes on Friday August 12, 2022 @05:50AM (#32436332)
> Some would describe what you're saying as "slacking" for those hours outside the six

this is the core issue - are you hired to do 8 hours of work, or are you hired to complete a set of tasks?

if the former, then yes, you're slacking off if you stop after 6 hours

if the latter, then no, as soon as you're done with those tasks then you have completed your day's work and can go do something else.

old-skool authoritarian management tends towards the former, and tends to measure time-at-desk rather than actual productivity. Hence they don't like WFH because it forces the latter.