> GraphQL

What libraries does this require? I'm just issuing fetch requests and getting back JSON. Apollo is absolutely NOT EVEN CLOSE TO required to do GQL...

Honestly, both GraphQL and everything else listed seems pretty orthogonal to the original discussion of frameworks... Whether you used VanillaJS or React or a server-rendering platform, your choices of internationalization & datastores & auth & functionality require code...

If you bring HTML rendering to the client you will need a ton of other libraries as well.

There are several GraphQL libraries supporting different features, of different sizes.

> If you bring HTML rendering to the client

The client being the browser? Isn't HTML rendering what it does? What kind of HTML rendering are you talking about?

You render HTML with React or PHP.

The browser renders a webpage using the rendered HTML, CSS and sometimes Javascript.

Ah, I see. I don't see why you need tons of libraries, or any libraries at all, for that though. (And you don't even need to render any intermediary HTML if you use the DOM API.)

I don't really follow your overall point. The discussion was around how "frameworks are huge", and now you're saying... You need other libraries than the framework for HTML rendering?

> There are several GraphQL libraries

And some of them are tiny, which is antithetical to your previous point...

No discussion is about the architectural model, not only frameworks.

Do client side rendering of HTML and you’ll need libraries, just like you do on the backend.

The frameworks ARE the HTML rendering. We're really running in circles about nothing in particular here, I think it's ok to leave.