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Re:Nuclear energy is clean by belorn on Monday August 01, 2022 @06:13AM (#32303968)
There isn't a single existing pump storage plant in the world that charge with renewables energy and resells it when demand is high. There exist a few proof of concepts, but the only commercial one that I know off do so by charging it from fossil fuel power plants. It act as a large subsidized grid stabilizer for when different fossil fuel power power down.

When there are articles about pumped storage plants the usual problems are not legislative or infrastructure. The biggest issue is that investors don't like to create overcapacity, which mean that there isn't a lot of available renewable energy to buy cheap in order to sell expensively later to recover the cost of storage. When overcapacity occur the enthusiasm for more capacity quickly drop. The secondary issues tend to be more physical in nature. Salt water is very problematic in any situation, so putting pumped storage plants near the ocean has many problems. If you use fresh water you compete with existing utilization, and most suitable locations for pumped storage already have existing hydroelectric power. Fresh water has often a very complex ecosystems and everything from nature to human depend on it.

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by raxxorraxor on Monday August 01, 2022 @07:17AM (#32304407)
There are a lot of pump storage plants with various forms of storage mechanisms. Renewables are part of the general energy mix so of course these storage plants also store energy from renewables. In Switzerland and Austria it has become a business because of the overproduction of Germany. Given, they have the matching topography that make them easier to build, but you won't necessarily need that.

Hydroelectric power and pumped storage have synergies, they aren't competing.

Stored power isn't overcapacity. Investors care about expensive energy and renewables are the cheapest and cleanest option.

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by belorn on Monday August 01, 2022 @07:53AM (#32304707)
k, I will bite. Give me a source for a pumped storage facility that buy wind or solar when overproduction causes the prices to be low, and then sells it when the price is high. How much do they pay on average, how much at the point of sale, and how is the ROI per kw/h.

All the existing pumped storage facilities that I know of do not generate their profit from buying low and selling high. They generate profits by providing a service of balancing the grid for short duration so that when a power plant is ramping down, there is a equal force being provided as a service so that the grid doesn't break down. The period of ramping down/up need to be covered somehow, a cost that either the grid operator or the individual power plants need to pay for. The end customer who pays by the kw/h do not see this cost, and it is a very insignificant cost of the whole since it only occur at start and stop.

But I am happy to be proven wrong. Please give me that link of one that buy low and sell high. A commercial operated pumped storage that buy renewable energy when its low and sell when it is high can be scaled up to be used whenever the price difference between low and high is great enough. The cost of operation and investment just need to be low enough that the margin between low and high price points can support it.

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by natmaka on Tuesday August 02, 2022 @01:39AM (#32315485)
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by ncmncm on Monday August 01, 2022 @08:03AM (#32304781)
Obviously, until you have enough renewable generating capacity to charge your storage, you are not selling stored energy: you sold what you generated.

It is extremely disingenuous, not to say dishonest, to make up scenarios based on status quo when there is still very little renewable generation capacity.

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by belorn on Monday August 01, 2022 @08:28AM (#32305017)
I find equally disingenuous and dishonest to talk about pumped storage for renewables when they do not exist as a viable economical model.

If you want to blame the lack of renewable generation capacity then feel free to do so. Pumped storage could in theory, in the future, when the time is right, be cost effective. We don't know. We are not there yet. Its a financial model to be to be tested when and if we get there.

For now the financial model for existing pumped storage do not care about the purchasing price or selling price, or what kind of power it is being charged with.

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by ncmncm on Monday August 01, 2022 @10:07AM (#32306134)
What is this "financial model" you imagine?

Utilities will need storage, and will build whatever is cheapest. In some places that will be pumped hydro. End of story.

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by belorn on Monday August 01, 2022 @10:39AM (#32306593)
If you are wondering why a company need a financial viable model to operate on then I can't help you.
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by ncmncm on Monday August 01, 2022 @11:01AM (#32306918)
So, you imagine a company for each water pump? That is not how things are run where I live.
Re:Nuclear energy is clean by ianleighton on Monday August 01, 2022 @10:58AM (#32306882)
Would this satisfy your criteria? Or are you looking for someone explicitly pairing pumped hydro with other renewables?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/18/portugal...

This was probably made possible by the half-dozen pumped storage hydro plants in Portugal. Now they’re putting floating solar on some as well.

Re:Nuclear energy is clean by belorn on Monday August 01, 2022 @01:44PM (#32309540)
hydro-generated electricity is great, and if they are pumped using renewable energy when supply is high then in theory they could be used to supply that energy when supply is low.

But thanks for that link. Tâmega energy storage complex is actually looking like it will be a real renewable storage, using two attached wind farms. Just like with solar, when renewable is combined with storage it makes more sense when the renewable plants is located next to the storage and operated by the same company.

It would be really interesting to hear some numbers from that plant, like how much money they gain by storing the wind power and selling it at a later point in time. It would also be very interesting to see the cost per kw/h, even through at this point in time with energy prices being what they are, I will likely not matter too much.