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Re:West London faces new home ban as electric grid at capaci... by bluescrn on Thursday July 28, 2022 @05:39AM (#32262262)
I strongly suspect that ban will be delayed. There's still no serious effort to build large-scale public EV charging infrastructure.

The ban on new petrol vehicles seems likely to result in more older (higher-emission) vehicles remaining on the road for longer, as EVs still remain 'toys for the wealthy', far too expensive for the working class (who rely on inexpensive used cars).

It's unclear what the used EV market is going to look like longer-term in terms of pricing, degraded battery packs, and reduced range, and availability of repair/servicing for a vehicle that's now a 'tech product' full of software locks, that can only be repaired by authorised dealers, rather than by any skilled mechanic.

It's also unclear how governments are going to tax EV users to recoup the huge amount of fuel tax lost from the switch to EVs...

Re:West London faces new home ban as electric grid at capaci... by paulb73 on Thursday July 28, 2022 @07:10AM (#32262820)
The used market is what really concerns me with the EV market, when it comes to sustainability. My daughter will be driving in 2 years time and is adamant she won't drive something powered by fossil-fuels.

However, what choice does she have? Any used EV will have a range of 50 miles, and that is after a full 8 hour charge. Fixing/replacing the battery will cost far more than the vehicle itself.

More recent EVs 2nd-hand price is still higher than a new petrol-based one.

I can't see how the market can support itself, without efforts to create batteries that can be recycled easily, but the manufacturers don't seem to have an interest in that.

Re:West London faces new home ban as electric grid at capaci... by Lutger on Thursday July 28, 2022 @11:35AM (#32265758)
Where is your 50 miles number based on? Seems really far off to me.
Re:West London faces new home ban as electric grid at capaci... by paulb73 on Thursday July 28, 2022 @12:22PM (#32266472)
I was looking at old EVs, 10+ years old, that my daughter could afford herself for £3k - £5k.

It might be that more recent cars retain their range better after 10 years, but then they may also retain their price.

Re:West London faces new home ban as electric grid at capaci... by ZeroGravitas on Thursday July 28, 2022 @08:14AM (#32263251)
This is a nice summary of all the usual talking points that aren't true.

The ban has already been brought forward in multiple jurisdictions, that's the general trend, as people realise all the lies they've been told about EVs aren't true, so delaying it would be very surprising. In London, they have the low emission zones on top of that, so any poor person buying an old ICE car for use in London would be paying hefty sums to drive around.

There's multiple serious efforts to build large-scale public (and private) EV charging infrastructure. Why do you think there isn't? How can you think that? They're popping up everywhere.

The ban doesn't even ban PHEVs currently (though there's reasonable chance that it will be strengenthed in some way as the transition accelerates) so even ignoring all EVs with lower TCO than equivalent ICE cars available today, which will be 8 years old in 2030, there's also tons of hybrids for these poor people to buy.

Degraded battery packs? Now that's a classic, thought that one had died out, along with "toys for the wealthy".

The "fuel tax" is more than made up for by all the many benefits of EV (less pollution being a key one) that society gets, but it's good that governments will probably tax EVs as cars, even EVs, have multiple negative externalities that the people who use them should pay for, so the people cycling or on the train don't need to pay for other people's bad decisions. Otherwise we'll end up with inefficient American sprawl rather than healthy, livable cities.

Re:West London faces new home ban as electric grid at capaci... by yobbo on Thursday July 28, 2022 @08:51AM (#32263605)
> Degraded battery packs?

Do car batteries not degrade? How are they different from other batteries?

> The "fuel tax" is more than made up for by all the many benefits of EV

From the government's perspective, it's lost cash flow.

Re:West London faces new home ban as electric grid at capaci... by ZeroGravitas on Thursday July 28, 2022 @08:57AM (#32263653)
We have a decade of data on the question of how much degredation there is for EVs. Short answer, not much.

https://storage.googleapis.com/geotab-sandbox/ev-battery-deg...

In the UK, the government also pays for the dementia and asthma that the car pollution creates, and importing the fuels is a cost, as is the lost efficiency, cost of meeting net zero targets and upgrading the grid (which EVs help with) so it evens out.

As I say, they'll probably start taxing them anyway, and thats good, London has a "Congestion Charge" so exceptions for EV make sense as a short term incentive, but they still cause "congestion" and should still pay.

Re:West London faces new home ban as electric grid at capaci... by yobbo on Thursday July 28, 2022 @09:24AM (#32263941)
In some degradation curves for lithium batteries, it looks like degradation is linear down to 80% over around 150 cycles. From then it degrades to 0% over another 100 cycles.

From the curves in your link, it seems EVs have fewer cycles per year than mobile phones or laptops.

But after 15-20 years, their batteries will still most likely be dead.

Re:West London faces new home ban as electric grid at capaci... by ZeroGravitas on Thursday July 28, 2022 @09:35AM (#32264076)
Average age of cars in the UK is 8.4 years, it's growing, but slowly, the 13 years+ segment is about 1/5 of the total, so as long as 1 out of every 5 batteries makes it that far, we'll be fine, anything better than that is a plus. Plus we can start making the new batteries from the 20 year old dead batteries rather than mining fresh materials for them, if we can't find any other use for them.
Re:West London faces new home ban as electric grid at capaci... by sanitycheck on Thursday July 28, 2022 @10:00AM (#32264387)
The average /lifespan/ of a car in the UK appears to be 13 years which I think means we currently expect half of cars to be used for longer than that. EV batteries apparently have 7-8 year warranties, I assume that's the result of a lot of careful consideration.

We can expect battery tech to improve in the next 8 years, and hopefully become cheaper, but a move to EVs could still drastically limit availability of cheap vehicles for those who need them.

Re:West London faces new home ban as electric grid at capaci... by bluescrn on Thursday July 28, 2022 @09:05AM (#32263734)
How do you expect to create "healthy, livable cities" at a time when cities are in decline, perhaps even becoming obsolete? First, the internet killed physical retail, recently, the pandemic killed more businesses/opportunities and caused an exodus of WFH-ers, and in some cities there's a very visible rise in crime, drugs, and homelessness.

Removing private cars from cities won't revolutionise them, when the roads are still going to be full of commercial vehicles, buses, and taxis. Yeah, it'll make it somewhat safer for cyclists and reduce air pollution and noise a little - but not enough to turn a declining urban dystopia into a desirable place to live.

Unless of course, you're very wealthy and can live in a luxury apartment with good security and plenty of distance from the 'rough areas'.

Re:West London faces new home ban as electric grid at capaci... by ZeroGravitas on Thursday July 28, 2022 @09:27AM (#32263974)
> Removing private cars from cities won't revolutionise them, when the roads are still going to be full of commercial vehicles, buses, and taxis

That sounds pretty revolutionary to me already? Why don't you think so?

There's lots of existing plans to improve those other things too, pedestrian only zones, car-free superblocks, e-cargo bikes replacing some commercial vehicles, bike shares, subways and metro systems, bus rapid transit corridors, seperated bike-lanes, mixed-usage districts so that people have everything they need within a walkable radius.

Plan for cars and you get cars, plan for people and you get people.

Even if I accept your premise that cities are descending into "Escape from New York" territory, how does allowing ICE cars to spew pollution do anything but make that worse?

Re:West London faces new home ban as electric grid at capaci... by ceras on Thursday July 28, 2022 @01:56PM (#32267939)
> at a time when cities are in decline

Do you have a source for that? Here in NYC things seem as popular as ever, with record-breaking rents due to high demand. Is it different elsewhere?

Regardless, even if it's true that some cities are struggling, that only makes it more important for them to focus on improving quality of life: a rise in WFH means people have more options, and a city that doesn't want to depopulate has to be an attractive place to live independent of economic opportunity.