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Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by Androsynth on Thursday November 10, 2011 @02:29PM (#3221430)
Bullshit, this is a free market economy. If I feel you are overpaid for what you contribute, I can fire you. This is not extortion, they are readjusting their compensation to the market-going rates.

Whether it is moral or whether it will hurt them in the future are different questions.

Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by dylangs1030 on Thursday November 10, 2011 @07:56PM (#3222795)
The "different questions" are relevant. If this were merely a question of what the company can and can't do as a capitalist enterprise, the article would not have been written. Ethics are important. Would you be as dispassionate about this if you were a Zynga employee?
Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by danssig on Friday November 11, 2011 @04:23AM (#3224002)
All your posts here make you sound like a really ignorant person, in regards to the subject at hand. The best thing for you would probably be to stop posting and start reading instead.
Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by wavephorm on Thursday November 10, 2011 @02:36PM (#3221478)
They aren't being fired for being overpaid, they're being threatened with termination unless they surrender their equity in a privately owned company.

Definiton of extortion (from wikipedia):

  Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and
  exaction) is a criminal offence which occurs when a
  person unlawfully obtains either money, property or
  services from a person(s), entity, or institution, through coercion.
What Zynga is doing IS extortion. Perhaps it is a form of extortion that is legal in California.
Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by Androsynth on Thursday November 10, 2011 @02:45PM (#3221523)
That is an inaccurate view of the situation. Unvested shares are not equity.

You are acting as if they are being asked to give away something that they own; they are being asked to give up future compensation.

I put this in another comment: "However the problem with your math (and most others in this thread) is this: lets say Zynga values me at 4 shares, and I get 1 vested per year. However after two years, and a few splits, I have 128 shares.

The company hired me to work as a 4 share employee, then it grew like crazy and I became a 128 share employee. This is normal in tech nowadays, most people take it for granted that you just get lucky and accept your windfall. But the fact is that you are a 4 share employee being paid 3000% of what you were hired at."

I know this goes against the way it's always been in the tech industry, but it is not extortion.

Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by ootachi on Thursday November 10, 2011 @03:15PM (#3221654)
The company didn't hire you to work as a 4-share employee, they hired you to work as a 4-share employee with significant upside potential. That is how early startup employees are compensated for the increased risk and lesser salary they take on.
Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by Androsynth on Thursday November 10, 2011 @03:51PM (#3221814)
Yes, you and your sibling threads are all correct, but it's not extortion. It's immoral and will certainly hurt them in the future, but it's not extortion.

I am simply trying to explain why this is a moral issue and not a legal issue.

This is the equivalent of saying: 'your gonna have to take a pay cut or were gonna have to let you go'. It is morally repugnant and goes against everything we believe in the startup community, but it is not illegal, nor should it be.

Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by joezydeco on Thursday November 10, 2011 @05:16PM (#3222146)
Imagine your company gave you a $40,000 bonus. You get 4 checks for $10k each, dated 11-Nov-2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015. If the company is still in business on those dates you can cash the checks. If you leave or quit, you hand back the uncashed checks.

Now the company says "give us back 2014 and 2015 or you're fired". What would you say?

Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by kamaal on Friday November 11, 2011 @12:23AM (#3223529)
Also more importantly they gave a $40,000 bonus as payable in the future because they wanted you to do $40,000 work now but didn't have money to pay you.
Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by joezydeco on Friday November 11, 2011 @08:12AM (#3224454)
Yeah, I realized after the fact that the analogy was a little shaky there. It's not just a bonus but deferred compensation. But let's keep it simple for now. Androsynth had a problem trying to understand the idea that these options were granted in lieu of earned pay.
Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by mjs00 on Friday November 11, 2011 @03:40AM (#3223922)
This analogy isn't correct with regard to future periods, vesting is concurrent with your participation (contribution and effort). The trigger for earning the bonus is not if the company is in business that year, but if you were a member of the company and contributed during that period to earn the bonus. The issue at hand is mid-stream renegotiation of the future un-earned bonuses.
Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by jellicle on Thursday November 10, 2011 @04:48PM (#3222038)
No matter how vehemently you keep asserting it, the promise Zynga made has value - or else Zynga wouldn't want to renege on it, duh - and making threats in order to get anyone to give you anything of value is extortion in the common law.
Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by einhverfr on Thursday November 10, 2011 @09:10PM (#3223041)
I agree it is not extortion. Extortion typically requires the threat of unlawful force. If I way "Pay me $100 not to picket your company" and I start lawfully picketing that's not extortion. Otherwise workers strikes would all be illegal.

The larger issue though here is that of a contract. The company has in essence said "we want you to stick around and so we are giving you an incentive of stock options which vest on such and such a schedule."

Later they are saying "give up what we gave you or leave so we can take them back." It's this choice here which says clearly "we are going back on our contracts with you."

A close example might be this "We are giving you a raise and will pay you retro pay next month when this goes through but you have to work fewer hours at your hourly wage" and then the next month saying "sorry, no retro pay for you."

I think this would be a fun case. And now that class action cases have taken a few serious setbacks in the courts, it seems to me that Zynga really should be getting sued by lots and lots of employees in individual lawsuits..... One piranha may be good for dinner, but don't wade into a swarm of them.

Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by rayiner on Thursday November 10, 2011 @05:24PM (#3222180)
Morality and legality are somewhat intertwined in business law. Every contract contains an implied duty of "good faith and fair dealing." Violations of that duty can result in contract damages.

It's not at all clear-cut. See sections 5-6 of this article: http://www.bernabeipllc.com/pdfs/stockoptions.pdf

Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by rhizome on Thursday November 10, 2011 @04:24PM (#3221938)
You don't know whether or not it's a legal issue.
Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by Androsynth on Thursday November 10, 2011 @04:55PM (#3222072)
I am saying it shouldn't be a legal issue.

It is the equivalent of saying 'you need to take a cut in pay or you will be laid off'.

Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by _delirium on Thursday November 10, 2011 @05:08PM (#3222121)
If we're talking about what should be illegal, I find it hard to argue that it shouldn't be. If you hire someone on the promise that they'll get a bonus at 5 years, and purposely fire them at 4 years, 11 months solely to avoid paying them the bonus, that should be illegal. In any reasonable interpretation of the contract, that isn't good-faith upholding of the contract--- you promised them something at certain milestones, and then purposely acted in a manner intended for the sole purpose of sabotaging the milestones, which is acting in bad faith.

In most other kinds of contingent pay that's tortious: if you promise a building contractor contingency bonuses upon meeting certain deadlines, and then you purposely interfere to make them miss the deadlines so you can get the work cheaper (and admit doing so!), you're probably acting illegally. Heck, even basketball players have sued over instances where a team kept them out of a few games solely to cause them to miss performance targets.

Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by ericd on Thursday November 10, 2011 @05:55PM (#3222301)
I disagree, what you describe is shady, but also pretty unrealistic. Normally there's a vesting schedule with only a 1 year cliff, and then chunks vest yearly. That's essentially pro-rata.
Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by kls on Friday November 11, 2011 @12:43AM (#3223575)
what you describe is shady

Not only is it shady it is a legal term and that term is called bad faith, if you can prove the party acted in bad faith, which if what is being reported about, return it or get fired, then that one is pretty locked up, then they are in violation of the spirit of contract. Faith is one of the foundations of contract law. If you are found to have not honored the faith portion of the contract then more times than not, you will be on the loosing end of a contract dispute.

Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by ericd on Friday November 11, 2011 @04:40AM (#3224040)
I'm aware of bad faith.

I think the fact that it continuously vests after a cliff, that it's clear in basically every options grant that you don't receive unvested options upon termination, and because employment contracts repeatedly emphasize that employment is completely at-will makes it pretty clear that you shouldn't count your unvested option chickens before they hatch, and hard to prove that you could reasonably expect to vest all options. The employees that have been there for multiple years will have already vested a big percentage of their stock regardless of what happens.

I think Zynga is repulsive, and will hopefully get punished hard on many fronts for this, but I'm not convinced that what they're doing is strictly illegal. I'm convinced they'll get sued, though.

Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by rdl on Thursday November 10, 2011 @07:09PM (#3222636)
The standard is to have a 1 year cliff (i.e. 25% of equity vest at 1 year), and then monthly vesting of the remainder (1/36 per month for the next 36 months). NOT yearly vesting after the first year.

The exception is M&A earn out or vesting for key hires, which is often yearly, and sometimes even crazier; 1/2/3/4 where it's 10% the first year, 20% the second, 30% the third, and 40% the fourth.

Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by ericd on Friday November 11, 2011 @04:33AM (#3224022)
Oops, sorry, yeah, you're right - it is normally monthly.

That latter vesting is pretty crazy - with each year, each point is usually getting nonlinearly more valuable as well.

Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by danssig on Friday November 11, 2011 @04:29AM (#3224013)
No it isn't. A big corp I worked at in the US had a 1/7th per year vesting period. Then the dot com bubble came and they gave everyone 4-year cliff options. That is, no vesting until after 4 years. They absolutely could have fired people 3 years and 11 months in (and almost certainly did).
Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by ericd on Friday November 11, 2011 @04:34AM (#3224024)
Sorry, I was talking about the typical valley vesting schedule, I'm sure they run the gamut in the wider corporate world.
Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by Gormo on Thursday November 10, 2011 @04:36PM (#3221992)
Unvested shares may not be equity in the company, but they very well may be equity in the equity. They represent a promise to grant actual shares when certain conditions are met, and that promise is worth something in the present. Contriving to reneg on that promise is little different from defaulting on your debts. In a way, it actually is defaulting on a debt.
Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by nathanb on Thursday November 10, 2011 @03:28PM (#3221721)
And you are making the critical assumption that the employee or the employer in your hypothetical situation expected those four shares to remain four shares.

If I'm a small company just getting started, what do I have to attract top talent? Maybe I can't afford to pay as well as the established companies, or maybe my benefits are going to be worse (or nonexistent). But I do have stock options. If I'm a fledgling corporation, stock options can get me more talent than I could otherwise command, and if I'm a skilled engineer, I feel like I can directly affect the fortunes of this company and thus my own net worth if I am compensated heavily in stock options which, in the unlikely chance that all goes better than expected, could make me wildly rich.

Your hypothetical four-share employee certainly didn't sign on just on the strength of those four shares alone. And, quite possibly, the employer played up the possibility of those four shares becoming many more shares down the road if things go well.

Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by danssig on Friday November 11, 2011 @04:26AM (#3224009)
>You are acting as if they are being asked to give away something that they own

They are. They own those stock options, with the provision that they stay out the life of the vesting period. They are now being prevented from holding up their side of the contract. They would gladly stay through the vesting period if allowed to.

Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by wavephorm on Thursday November 10, 2011 @03:10PM (#3221632)
Now you're just descending into pedantry. Yes, unvested shares are not technically equity, that doesn't mean they cannot be the basis of extortion.
Re:Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired by nobody3141592 on Thursday November 10, 2011 @03:28PM (#3221718)
In a startup stock options are a future promise to make up for lower salary. You are gambling on the company doing well.

What they are doing is like hiring a salesman on low salary + commission and then firing them the day before the commission is paid.