"Nothing on earth could make these guys improve"? No, I wouldn't say that. But I am confident in saying they will always be below average. I've been doing this for a few decades now, and the idea everyone has the potential to be a great programmer just isn't borne out by that experience.

>But I am confident in saying they will always be below average.

Of course there are and what I'm saying is that this isn't a static group. People will move in and out of it. I'm sure there is a very small percentage who stay at the bottom just as their is a very small percentage who stay at the top. But the bulk programmers are moving between these different groups through-out their careers.

>and the idea everyone has the potential to be a great programmer just isn't borne out by that experience.

What experience? You don't have any idea what's happened to the "no hopers" you've known in your career. I agree that some people seem like they're not going to get it, but who knows? Maybe they'll meet someone who flips a switch for them.

Heh. Relevant thing happened today: One of them called yesterday asking if we had a position open.