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Re:ISO name change for Türkiye by catskul2 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @02:57PM (#32074252)
> It is much like Americans saying "Mel and I", in object context, e.g. "She accused Mel and I", where "Mel and me" would have been right. ...

> It is not at all similar to any variation on "Mel and I", which is an artificial rule that English speakers must be taught in school. The form people use naturally is "me and Mel".

I think you're misunderstanding here. There's no situation where "she accused (Mel and) I" works. It's not taught in school. It happens because of people "hyper correcting" to match the inverted sentence. "(Mel and) I accused her" which they get corrected to use by the teacher when they say "(Mel and) me accused her".

Re:ISO name change for Türkiye by thaumasiotes on Wednesday July 13, 2022 @12:33PM (#32085015)
I'm not misunderstanding anything.

> There's no situation where "she accused (Mel and) I" works.

That is true.

> It happens because of people "hyper correcting" to match the inverted sentence. "(Mel and) I accused her" which they get corrected to use by the teacher

That is also true. But your own example is telling you that there is also no situation where "Mel and I accused her" works. Sentences in that form do not naturally occur in English; they must be taught in school. The correct form would be "Me and Mel accused her".

Intrusive R isn't like that. It is a feature of the language, not something dictated to speakers by a formal education system.

Re:ISO name change for Türkiye by xdennis on Wednesday July 13, 2022 @01:40PM (#32086125)
> The correct form would be "Me and Mel accused her".

No it isn't. You'd never say "Me accused her". If you don't like the inversion its perfectly fine to say "I and Mel accused her", but using "me" for the subject is never correct.

Re:ISO name change for Türkiye by thaumasiotes on Wednesday July 13, 2022 @05:06PM (#32088764)
> but using "me" for the subject [within a coordinated subject] is never correct.

Why do you believe this?

Re:ISO name change for Türkiye by catskul2 on Monday July 25, 2022 @05:06PM (#32230931)
Not the OP, but the alternative requires that either:

- "Me fail English." is considered to be a well formed construction, or that...

- ...adding a conjunction is important in determining whether "I" or "Me" is should be used.

It's just not the case that either of those are true in standard English.

While, in theory, you can have any rule you want within some sub-dialect, that would be a very strange rule indeed.

Re:ISO name change for Türkiye by ncmncm on Thursday July 14, 2022 @06:59PM (#32102401)
Because it is true.

If you believe otherwise, you are tragically misinformed and miseducated.

Using "me" in subject context is, besides being wrong, a social low-class marker. It does not come naturally to English speakers; it only ever occurs through exposure to the misuse.

Re:ISO name change for Türkiye by schoen on Thursday July 14, 2022 @09:24PM (#32103528)
I'm a bit skeptical of this overall, but it's obviously complicated to get data that filter out the effects of sociolectal solidarity. (Can you get people to speak "naturally" but without priming them to speak or to avoid speaking in a particular register or sociolect!?)

There are well-known phenomena like

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attraction_(grammar)

which can become conventionalized and eventually part of native speakers' intuitions even though they can be contrary to a more logically consistent or simpler understanding of agreement.

Re:ISO name change for Türkiye by thaumasiotes on Friday July 15, 2022 @04:16PM (#32112288)
> Using "me" in subject context is, besides being wrong, a social low-class marker. It does not come naturally to English speakers

This is not even a theoretical possibility. There are no low-class markers that don't come naturally, because no one is going to make an effort to present themselves as low-class.

Re:ISO name change for Türkiye by ncmncm on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:29PM (#32113460)
It takes obvious effort to overcome received habits from one's local idiolect, as for example underclass people did in England, last century, deliberately adopting an (imperfectly reproduced version of) the overclass rhotic affectation in an attempt at economic advancement.

You are getting really disingenuous, now. Who are you performing for?

Re:ISO name change for Türkiye by ncmncm on Wednesday July 13, 2022 @12:47PM (#32085266)
100% wrong, again.
Re:ISO name change for Türkiye by thaumasiotes on Wednesday July 13, 2022 @12:53PM (#32085357)
You like saying that, but so far you've shown no evidence that you have any idea what you're talking about.

Compare the article on intrusive R I linked before:

> This is now common enough in parts of England that, by 1997, the linguist John C. Wells considered it objectively part of Received Pronunciation, though he noted that it was still stigmatized as an incorrect pronunciation, as it is or was in some other standardized non-rhotic accents. Wells writes that at least in RP, "linking /r/ and intrusive /r/ are distinct only historically and orthographically".[17]

Where footnote 17 cites a paper from 1982.

Re:ISO name change for Türkiye by ncmncm on Wednesday July 13, 2022 @01:02PM (#32085500)
You even cite proof that you are wrong.
Re:ISO name change for Türkiye by thaumasiotes on Wednesday July 13, 2022 @05:01PM (#32088709)
What exactly do you think you're saying?
Re:ISO name change for Türkiye by ncmncm on Wednesday July 13, 2022 @07:21PM (#32089966)
John C. Wells has patiently explained to you that intrusive-R pronunciation, while not expected of anyone, is (mostly) not considered to require correction, or to reliably unmask a bounder.
Re:ISO name change for Türkiye by thaumasiotes on Thursday July 14, 2022 @09:54AM (#32096124)
And what does that have to do with my comments?
Re:ISO name change for Türkiye by ncmncm on Thursday July 14, 2022 @07:00PM (#32102406)
It means not only are you 100% wrong, you also resist education.