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Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by sdfhdhjdw3 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @09:50AM (#32069912)
I don't know....

What do you need to have a daily traded volume of $1m? Lets find examples.

E.g. 1 - you need e.g. 1k people trading $1k

Is that unrealistic? I don't know. The world is a very big place with a lot of stupid people. But wait! all of these morons use stupid leverage. Many of these platforms give you 100x. Yes, really.

Here's a few more ways that you can get $1m daily:

e.g. 2 - 1k people putting up $10 with 100x leverage

e.g. 3 - 100 people putting up $100 with 100x leverage

Neither of these look unrealistic to me.

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by SilverBirch on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @11:15AM (#32071176)
Leverage can show you a short term source of revenue, but what we're saying here is a few things: Firstly, they're still going to be paying the fees and spread, so they're still losing tonnes on fees (and this is massive volume per day). That's just not sustainable, especially if people are getting wiped out with these pump and dumps, if it's done against people on leverage someone is going to be stuck holding the bag.
Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by otherme123 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:02PM (#32071875)
On the pump phase, everything could work, even if it's not sustainable and even if everybody suspects that is not sustainable.

I'm old enough to have lived the .com bubble as an adult, and almost everybody knew/suspected it was a bubble, and that 95% of the business would fall at some point in the near future. But if you believed that it would last at least one more year, and you can squeeze a 20% profit, and you can do it leveraged 10x... it's just too tempting to many.

Fast forward 7 or so years, housing bubble, same tune: it was a main talking point, everybody knew it was a bubble and unsustainable, but very few predicted the burst to 2007 (and even the ones who did were the same that predicted it to 2004, 2005 and 2006). You are in 2004, everybody saying "this is a bubble" and waiting. In 2005 people still waiting looked like losers, while 2004 buyers laughed and I-told-you.

Nobody wants to be a loser, and some people should beat the market or get fired. Only way to beat the market? Ride the bubble. And the rational way to ride a known bubble is leveraged: you enter the market, profit heavily, and ideally exit (it almost never works). You know you cannot ride a bubble expecting it to rise forever, you know it's going to crash, so you need to enter and exit ASAP.

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by SideburnsOfDoom on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:26AM (#32070448)
> E.g. 1 - you need e.g. 1k people trading $1k

Or 2 people, who pass $1K "worth" of coin back and forth 1k times.

it's more efficiently, as you can replace the people with for loops.

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by sdfhdhjdw3 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:38AM (#32070628)
Yes, the person I was responding to already said wash trading. You're just repeating what he said, you've added nothing to the conversation.

My point was that wash trading isn't the only explanation.

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by prepend on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @01:43PM (#32073372)
I think wash trading is the explanation. Without regulation these numbers aren’t very useful because of wash trading.

The real question is why only this amount of wash trading and why everyone doesn’t do a billion.

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by SideburnsOfDoom on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @02:55PM (#32074230)
> The real question is why only this amount of wash trading and why everyone doesn’t do a billion.

You can't fool everyone all the time, but the transactions (volume etc) are likely intended to be realistic enough to fool some people sometimes.

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by sdfhdhjdw3 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @02:04PM (#32073616)
My explanation, on the other hand, also explains why it's not a billion.

So my explanation has more explanatory power than yours.

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by pbhjpbhj on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:02AM (#32070100)
How is the leverage working here beyond providing a convenient lie.

100x$100 is $10k no matter how much you lie that your shitcoin is worth 100x what people will pay for them. And that's diminishing your yield making it marginal whether you're matching your opportunity cost.

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by sdfhdhjdw3 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:06AM (#32070155)
> 100x$100 is $10k no matter how much you lie that your shitcoin is worth 100x what people will pay for them.

It's not worth 100x. You don't understand how leverage works, clearly.

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by pbhjpbhj on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:29AM (#32070500)
Well, that helped. /s

I thought leverage was effectively borrowing on anticipated gains. So I would spend $100 to, get credit to the tune of $10k, then buy my crypto with that. But, here we're talking about people buying a coin and the _seller_ saying the coin is worth 100x and so skipping the step of using fractional reserve to 'create' the funds (the loan amount) to exchange for crypto and just going straight to a deceit.

With leverage there's a debt written to counter the credit, here that doesn't seem to be happening.

So, where am I misunderstand the situation here?

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by otherme123 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:46AM (#32070764)
If the coin is trading at whatever price (say $100 a piece), you can leverage by 100x doing this:

- Put $100 as deposit.

- They borrow you 10k to buy 100 shitcoins for $100 each (instead of 1 you can really afford), so 10k of shitcoins with the condition that if the coin price falls below $99 your position is liquidated and you lose all.

Note that there's no seller saying "the coin is worth X", it just trades at that price.

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by onlyrealcuzzo on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:40AM (#32070673)
> So, where am I misunderstand the situation here?

It's pretty simple.

They put in $10 to borrow 100x$10 to buy $1000 worth of the coin. If the coin price goes down 1%, the borrower is wiped out.

You don't need fractional reserves for leverage.

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by pbhjpbhj on Friday July 15, 2022 @09:25AM (#32107931)
>They put in $10 to borrow 100x$10 to buy $1000 worth of the coin. //

If that is all with the coin seller/creator then you're not actually borrowing the money they're just saying 'that $10 token you bought from me 1s ago is worth $1000, you're rich'; you bought $10 worth of coins, the market price is $10, there's no actual leverage involved it's just a deceit.

If the seller is taking the $10 you pay to a different institution, borrowing $1000, then buying the coins, then legitimately they can say it's $1000 of coins. It's still clearly a scheme. The company lending that money are morons in this case unless they are doing it knowing full well that they are going to need to pursue people for the debt.

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by sdfhdhjdw3 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:37AM (#32070612)
> But, here we're talking about people buying a coin and the _seller_ saying the coin is worth 100x and so skipping the step of using fractional reserve to 'create' the funds (the loan amount) to exchange for crypto and just going straight to a deceit.

This is a meaningless word salad.

You have an account with an exchange. Taking a position with leverage 100x just means that every time the instrument moves $1 up, your account goes $100 up, and when it moves $1 down, your account goes $100 down.

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by dwild on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:04PM (#32071901)
> - 100 people putting up $100 with 100x leverage

You just made me realize how much cash trading platform probably are making using leverage. That explain why they were so quick to add theses coins. I'm curious to know how they manage the risk though.

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by sdfhdhjdw3 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:15PM (#32072075)
Hmmmm do fees scale with leverage? I don't know if that's true...

My understanding is that leverage is profitable to trading platforms, not because the fees are bigger, but because bigger leverage is "more fun" and so people trade more.

I don't know, you might be right.

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by cersa8 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:51PM (#32072643)
The fee is a percentage of the contract size, so higher leverage allows for bigger orders is higher fees.
Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by sdfhdhjdw3 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @12:58PM (#32072748)
The contract size doesn't change with leverage.

Do you mean a percentage of the notional value?

Re:I watched a friend of mine pump a shitcoin on Binance by ... by cersa8 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @04:48PM (#32075480)
Sorry, you are correct, the fee is a percentage of the notional value.