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Re:Congratulations: We now have opinions on your open source... by dataflow on Saturday July 09, 2022 @03:27PM (#32038436)
Honestly I don't think this is a hill you want to die on. "The greater your influence, the greater your responsibilities" is something society generally agrees is reasonable in most domains, and this is just a manifestation of that principle in the case of OSS and supply-chain integrity. The principle is pretty universal in modern society though. If you see an unreasonable responsibility being placed on you, for sure, complain about that. But if you don't think the responsibility itself (2FA in this case) is unreasonable, and in fact think it should be mandated on everyone, "it's a slippery slope!" and "it's not fair!" are not going to be compelling counterarguments for most people. It goes against what people expect in society.
Re:Congratulations: We now have opinions on your open source... by jnovek on Saturday July 09, 2022 @03:46PM (#32038610)
When we write software as part of a job, we have all kinds of staff who support the project —- project managers, product managers, QA, marketing and sales, security etc etc.

It really seems that, for open source projects, the author is expected to be responsible for everything.

I think it would be a great benefit to all of us if people who wanted to open up code but didn’t want to add responsibility to their own world felt welcome to do so. I think it’s a problem worth solving.

Re:Congratulations: We now have opinions on your open source... by DannyBee on Friday July 15, 2022 @08:48AM (#32107562)
"I think it would be a great benefit to all of us if people who wanted to open up code but didn’t want to add responsibility to their own world felt welcome to do so. I think it’s a problem worth solving."

I think i would strongly disagree with this view - this is similar to arguing that people should just be able to release plans for nuclear weapons (or take your pick of less extreme examples) without adding responsibility to themselves, etc.

There's no obvious reason they should be able to, or that it is a net benefit to society. It's one of those things that people often think "sounds good", but isn't that great in practice, ever.

In fact, most of the problem that exists today in OSS security, support, etc is precisely because of people opening up code without trying to add any responsibility to themselves. At the same time, OSS has produced 100 of everything, so it's really hard to believe arguments that "if we didn't let this happen, things would not progress" and the like. I don't believe we would have been worse in terms of progress, etc, if we instead had 10 of everything, with the people more willing to take responsibility.

More practically, society has always believed in balance in every similar sort of thing, so it's not obvious to me why the extreme of "everyone can release anything without any responsibility" is ideal for anyone.

Re:Congratulations: We now have opinions on your open source... by dataflow on Saturday July 09, 2022 @04:00PM (#32038739)
> It really seems that, for open source projects, the author is expected to be responsible for everything.

If you wrote "for underfunded projects" I would agree with you. It's a pretty universal fact of life regardless of the nature of the source.

> I think it’s a problem worth solving.

Definitely, I don't think anyone is against a solution to this problem. The question is what we can expect before the envisioned solution is finally created by someone and provided to us.

Re:Congratulations: We now have opinions on your open source... by saagarjha on Saturday July 09, 2022 @03:51PM (#32038662)
What’s interesting is that we don’t really have this kind of structure in place elsewhere to my knowledge, outside of open source software. There’s a limit to how much legal liability you can shed, and even after that social liability is much more fickle.
Re:Congratulations: We now have opinions on your open source... by the_mitsuhiko on Saturday July 09, 2022 @04:08PM (#32038804)
It’s the free (no payment) part that makes the difference and outside of the Open Source movement many things are not provided free of charge because of the associated costs.

Similar things happen for research papers or generally scientific content though. You won’t be successful in suing an author of a study for incorrect content either.

Re:Congratulations: We now have opinions on your open source... by dataflow on Saturday July 09, 2022 @03:55PM (#32038702)
> What’s interesting is that we don’t really have this kind of structure in place elsewhere to my knowledge, outside of open source software.

https://developer.apple.com/support/authentication/ ?

Re:Congratulations: We now have opinions on your open source... by saagarjha on Saturday July 09, 2022 @04:07PM (#32038797)
Not for 2FA, for absolving yourself of all responsibility.
Re:Congratulations: We now have opinions on your open source... by frenet on Saturday July 09, 2022 @04:11PM (#32038831)
Fundamentally I agree with you. But I also think it easy to get the idea that "no responsibility" is a prevailing view. Or at least that it has to be. There are plenty of people who want to do their best. I would certainly considered the author's software involvement to be part of that. It is just hard to do. And increasing hard not only because of software but society at large (like job and housing markets). So the problem exists regardless of various positions on the issue.

Or put another way. If we want open source developers who favor responsibility we have to make it easy for those developers. Otherwise we only end up with people who are fine with throwing things over the wall.

Re:Congratulations: We now have opinions on your open source... by TAForObvReasons on Saturday July 09, 2022 @03:40PM (#32038551)
2FA attempts to assert "the person who is publishing the package to the registry is someone that the registry expects"

As a user installing from a registry, you are trusting both the publisher AND the distributor.

Consider an attack where the distributor is adding malicious code to 1% of installs. The publisher is not involved in the process and (unless code signing is involved) has no influence.

But if code signing is involved, why is 2FA even needed? The signatures themselves should be sufficient proof.

So 2FA overall is a solution in the lens that the distributor intermediates the relationship. This need not happen. People can chuck tarballs and post signatures, establishing more direct trust compared to the indirect solution.

Re:Congratulations: We now have opinions on your open source... by dataflow on Saturday July 09, 2022 @03:46PM (#32038603)
That's not even the point of the blog post to begin debating it here. If the the author believes that then he can write a blog post about how 2FA is bad. That's not what we have here though. In fact, he instead says "it's a sensible thing" and his complaint is that it's a slippery slope: "More importantly though is what could come next. There is a hypothetical future where the rules tighten."
Re:Congratulations: We now have opinions on your open source... by woodruffw on Saturday July 09, 2022 @05:41PM (#32039556)
> 2FA attempts to assert "the person who is publishing the package to the registry is someone that the registry expects"

This is not what 2FA asserts in the context of PyPI. It’s used solely for logins to the web frontend, which is where users can manage their projects and the permissions associated with those projects. The idea is to make account takeover more difficult, since that’s (frequently) the first step in malicious package takeover. Assuming that you’re using API tokens to publish to PyPI (which you absolutely should be), having 2FA enabled on your account will not affect any ordinary publishing workflows.

We have separate plans to improve PyPI’s support for code signing.

Re:Congratulations: We now have opinions on your open source... by staticassertion on Saturday July 09, 2022 @03:43PM (#32038582)
They solve different problems. Given a signed package I can say "this is signed by that key". I can't say how that key was registered, or who registered it, etc. 2FA would be where that key registration actually happens.
Re:Congratulations: We now have opinions on your open source... by CJefferson on Saturday July 09, 2022 @04:48PM (#32039159)
That doesn't seem to apply to companies -- they make billions from open source and give back little, or nothing, to the majority of the authous and packages whose work they build on.

Now that's fine under open source licenses -- but if you want the "free", you also have to take the "no warranty".