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Re:Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy by ZeroGravitas on Thursday July 07, 2022 @09:08AM (#32013600)
I read the book before the numbers it cites were decades out of date. And even then, it made a pretty good case for renewables in the parts of the globe where most people live.

Once you update it with current figures I'm assuming it can only make a stronger case. So are you just using the old figures and pretending those haven't changed?

That's like trying to model the next iPhones specs from first principles with specs from the last century.

Well it won't have a very big HDD because all that spinning rust will really drain the AA batteries.

edit to add, but his basic strategy is sound:

> The principal problem is that carbon pollution is not priced correctly. And there is no confidence that it’s going to be priced correctly in the future. When I say “correctly,” I mean that the price of emitting carbon dioxide should be big enough such that every running coal power station has carbon capture technology fitted to it.

> Solving climate change is a complex topic, but in a single crude brush- stroke, here is the solution: the price of carbon dioxide must be such that people stop burning coal without capture

The UK basically did this. Note that it was found by the market that replacing the coal plants entirely was cheaper than adding carbon capture to them.

edit 2:

> The most promising of these options, in terms of scale, is switching on and off the power demand of electric-vehicle charging. 30 million cars, with 40 kWh of associated batteries each (some of which might be ex- changeable batteries sitting in filling stations) adds up to 1200 GWh. If freight delivery were electrified too then the total storage capacity would be bigger still.

> There is thus a beautiful match between wind power and electric vehicles. If we ramp up electric vehicles at the same time as ramping up wind power, roughly 3000 new vehicles for every 3 MW wind turbine, and if we ensure that the charging systems for the vehicles are smart, this synergy would go a long way to solving the problem of wind fluctuations.

The UK also did this.

I'm baffled at the books continued popularly with renewable "debunkers". The book clearly described the problems and solutions. The main skepticism was aimed at politicians being able to overcome the political power of fossil fuel lobbiest and do something sensible.

The only explanation is a willful disregard for the new knowledge we've acquired in the intervening time period, much of which the author guesses correctly but we now know for a fact.

Re:Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy by ZeroGravitas on Thursday July 07, 2022 @11:31AM (#32015363)
I think I figured out why they like it.

There's an E (for economics) plan outlined as a proposed solution, that assumes we'll deploy a lot of the cheapest energy source, whatever that is. It then also assumes (!) that onshore wind will cost the same as Nuclear and offshore wind will cost more. Put those two assunptions together and you get a plan with lots of nuclear.

Note, he's not actually predicting this outcome, though it does seem to be his personal preference at the time. He mentions that cheaper solar-to-fuel might be an alternative, as what really mattered was which was cheapest, which he assumed, incorrectly, would be nuclear.

Actual reality looks a lot closer to his G plan, for 'greenpeace' named sarcastically because they just love wind power, because as it turned out wind was cheaper than basically everything else (until solar caught up in most of the world). Maybe Greenpeace got lucky, maybe they were just better informed.

So if he was to rewrite that same plan with today's figures, the Economist and Green party plans would probably agree. Amusingly ironic and a testament to his methods even if his clearly stated assumptions no longer hold true.

Re:Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy by KptMarchewa on Thursday July 07, 2022 @11:52AM (#32015609)
UK did this and that, and yet currently gas + nuclear generates over half of energy production.

https://app.electricitymap.org/zone/GB

Also, UK has one of the best in the world conditions for wind power. Wind sucks in Poland or Czech Republic.

Re:Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy by ThePhysicist on Thursday July 07, 2022 @02:50PM (#32017789)
I'm mostly referring to the section on storage, which is still largely true today. Germany does not have enough mountain areas to build significant hydro storage, and no other storage technology currently comes close to that in terms of efficiency and scale. We could of course produce hydrogen and burn that again but there the round-trip efficiency is only around 20 % in the best case I think (up to 50 % if we could use the waste heat as well), compared to around 80 % for hydro. Hence we would need to over-provision wind & solar energy production by 400 % to use this form of storage, which is highly unlikely as we will have trouble fulfilling our current ambitious goals for wind and solar, which already require a 500-1000 % increase in construction rates over the next decades.

Batteries would be another candidate but again the required amount of energy and the power slew rate are enormous, so storage facilities would be extremely costly and would compete with electric car battery production. I don't have much faith in the idea of storing energy in electric vehicle batteries as most of these cars will be on the road when the energy is needed (7-9 am) and will be mostly plugged in to charge when renewable production is low (during the night). Also I'm not sure if the electricity grid would even allow such a conversion as it's not designed for many small producers arranged in a mesh.

Re:Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy by ZeroGravitas on Thursday July 07, 2022 @04:04PM (#32018649)
The section on storage that literally starts by pointing out that a renewable only or nuclear only plan would both require storage?

And then lays out multiple solutions, including 20Kwh of EV battery storage for every person which must have been basically science fiction at the time of writing but now sounds entirely boring and inevitable for reasons entirely separate from power storage.

Yeah I'd say that holds up pretty well, but I'm still not seeing the problem it apparently poses for today's world of cheap renewables?

We need and want to produce lots of green hydrogen for non-burning purposes. That fits perfectly into the demand response idea he lays out in reasonable detail. So why do you seem to think pumped hydro storage was the only solution he mentioned?

Even with his dated view on PV prices, he raises the possibility of importing hydrogen:

> "Solar photovoltaics were technically feasible for Europe, but I judged them too expensive. I hope I’m wrong, obviously. It will be wonderful if the cost of photovoltaic power drops in the same way that the cost of computer power has dropped over the last forty years."

What a great quote to look back on from a future where his hopes came true.

Re:Nuclear turn green as EU parliament approves new taxonomy by belorn on Thursday July 07, 2022 @03:23PM (#32018193)
The evidence that renewables need to be supported by gas and oil is evidential in northern Europe, observed by anyone who pay their own electricity bill. When the wind is weak the market price is determined by gas and oil prices. When the wind is strong the price goes down to basically transit costs. Since the average wind condition is pretty much the same each year, the market cost for electricity has been 100% determined by gas and oil prices for the last decade.

If one also follow energy politics this has also been very clear by the politicians themselves. The green political movement has been advocating the concept of "reserve energy" over nuclear "base load". The strategy is to build out as much wind and solar as possible, while keeping natural gas and oil plant on subsidized plans. When the weather is bad for energy production, those natural gas and oil plant starts up and supply the missing supply.

For oil and gas operators this is a pretty great deal. They get paid twice, once by the government and then a second time by the market. They also only need to spend fuel when the market price is at its highest, reducing fuel costs and improving profits. It is pretty much a win-win situation for the government and power plants operators.