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Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by snarf21 on Friday July 01, 2022 @04:02PM (#31952037)
We really need to move to reference based pricing. We can cut so much waste out of the current system including brokers. Reference based pricing also get rids of the loopholes for things like anesthesiologists being "out of network" at a hospital/facility that is "in network". It also gets rid of the situation where if you offer cash you get one price but if you submit for the same code, it could be 3x or 10x or even more.
Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by arcticbull on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:05PM (#31953620)
Or we can have one network every doctor is in, and the state pays for everything. All doctors are independent contractors to the state. Everything is paid for. There's one price for everything. Everyone is covered. All this garbage just disappears.

Then there's one nice fee schedule like this, with all the prices on it, but it doesn't even matter, unless you're a physician doing your billing. [1]

[edit] As you can see from the PDF, a dermatology consult (A025) is $72CAD.

[1] https://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/ohip/sob/physse...

Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by amluto on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:04PM (#31954168)
I suspect we could do decently by requiring insurance to purely reimburse the patient (possibly without the patient needing to pay first). If an insurer pays up to $1k for an MRI, and a hospital charges $15k but an outpatient imaging center charges $700, there will be a strong incentive for patients to stop using the hospital’s MRI.

Combining this with an auto-service requirement for a binding estimate before services are rendered would be amazing.

(Dealing with actual emergencies in this model may be hard.)

Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by arcticbull on Saturday July 02, 2022 @12:21PM (#31960309)
Most people can't afford $500 in America.
Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by amluto on Saturday July 02, 2022 @02:30PM (#31961211)
Which isn’t necessarily a problem because of insurance. If insurance reimburses $500, than that $700 MRI costs $200. If insurance reimbursed $800, then the $700 MRI is free. (Presumably the rules should be that providers may not discriminate on price except for genuine charity and that insurers must advertise the extent to which their coverage is sufficient for, say, the lower 40% percentile costs in the area.

The goal here is to remove incentives for various forms of corruption:

Providers (especially pharmaceutical companies) to charge outlandish amounts and then reimburse copays.

Providers to optimize pricing to extract money from insurers, when insurers have very little say as to where patients go.

Patients to simply not care what procedures cost at different places (right now, patients often can’t even find out).

Providers to invent charges after the fact. (If a patient gets a binding estimate in advance with a line item that makes so sense, the patient will argue. If a patient’s insurance is billed for nonsense, there may not be anyone paying attention who knows better.)

Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by spaetzleesser on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:03PM (#31954161)
You don’t need to have the state pay. Make them charge the same price to all customers. Then you can have insurances compete. My body shop doesn’t charge one insurance $10/hr and another insurance $100/hr for the same work.
Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by arcticbull on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:27PM (#31954372)
> My body shop doesn’t charge one insurance $10/hr and another insurance $100/hr for the same work.

Do you know that for a fact?

Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by richiebful1 on Friday July 01, 2022 @08:31PM (#31954811)
In my experience auto insurers assess damage and award $X for repairs. You can either go to their contracted body shop or pick your own. If you pick your own, they typically take the $X as payment.
Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by ars on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:27PM (#31954371)
So many don't realize that this is entirely because Medicaid pays less than the cost of treatment. So hospitals make it up by charging other customers more.

If you actually wanted this then your taxes would go up because Medicaid expenses go up dramatically.

Maybe it's worth it - but at least be aware of what you are asking for.

Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by spaetzleesser on Saturday July 02, 2022 @12:19AM (#31956202)
"So many don't realize that this is entirely because Medicaid pays less than the cost of treatment. So hospitals make it up by charging other customers more."

I would like see an accounting of that. I bet they charge way more than they have to if they want to make up for Medicaid.

Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by heretogetout on Friday July 01, 2022 @08:03PM (#31954627)
I'd be interested in reading more about this. A lot of the cost of medicine is overhead interfacing with insurance providers and all the layers of profit therein, but I don't know exactly how much.
Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by datavirtue on Saturday July 02, 2022 @08:49AM (#31958591)
The how would all the hospitals afford to build all those fancy new buildings? Think of the architects!
Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by whatshisface on Friday July 01, 2022 @04:32PM (#31952434)
What's reference-based pricing?
Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by antisthenes on Friday July 01, 2022 @04:49PM (#31952656)
It's basically price-controls.

A regulatory body looks at how much something "should" cost based on its history of reimbursement and the cost of its inputs and then sets a cap of say, cost + 20%.

The problem is having an independent body that is free of influence of health insurance companies and hospitals, both of which have perverse incentives to continue profiteering.

Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by db48x on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:55PM (#31954077)
Not to mention the fact that it will eventually cause a supply shortage.
Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by alxhill on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:25PM (#31954346)
Germany has reference pricing for their drugs system and doesn't seem to have a supply issue. Genuine question, is there something that makes you think that wouldn't be true for the US?
Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by whatshisface on Friday July 01, 2022 @07:33PM (#31954420)
How would anyone notice a shortage when shortages came in the from of it not being standard practice to prescribe a medicine in a certain situation?
Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by db48x on Saturday July 02, 2022 @04:29PM (#31962061)
I was thinking more in terms of procedures. Look for waiting lists, those are the procedures where the government–chosen price is too low. Meanwhile more profitable procedures will not have a waiting list.

Medicines are more complicated because the manufacturer will probably have patents that grant them a manufacturing monopoly, meaning they can always set the price to whatever they want anyway. Not to mention that a multinational can afford to make less in some countries as long as on average they make enough to continue doing research. If Germany somehow sets a price that is egregiously low, the manufacturer can simply sell their medicine elsewhere instead.

Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by spaetzleesser on Saturday July 02, 2022 @12:23AM (#31956214)
" Genuine question, is there something that makes you think that wouldn't be true for the US?"

The US is too big, too diverse, too whatever else, blablabla for things that work perfectly anywhere else in the world. Nothing can be learned from other countries unless it makes capitalists richer.

Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by peyton on Saturday July 02, 2022 @01:54AM (#31956621)
No compulsory licensing.
Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by snarf21 on Friday July 01, 2022 @05:00PM (#31952829)
The sibling is right but in this case we'd probably do something like Medicare + 20%, which is actually close to what most insurers do for some of the codes already. It just removes the cost of negotiation, brokers, out of network, etc. and actually lets you know the cost up front for most appointments. We also need to get rid of service levels for most appointments. It is just used as an excuse to up charge by having patients fill out pointless paperwork. We also need to reimagine our service provider models. We have already move to CMAs to take blood pressure, etc. We also need to move to PA or LPN instead of a Dr for most cases. Ear infections, colds, flus, etc. are a majority of family appointments and can be handled by lower levels. The Dr can then review cases and deal with the more complicated cases where her expertise is most needed.
Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by dzink on Saturday July 02, 2022 @04:42AM (#31957324)
The whole premise of a doctor visit is you don’t know what is going on and you need someone to differentiate everything that’s happened to you to figure out if it’s gas pain or cancer. When you see a Doctor, they are trained for years more than any mid-level provider and they carry massive legal risks if they are wrong or negligent. When you see a PA or LPN they have far less training, and are judged by “nurses standard”, so when they miss your child’s cancer, or kill you by administering the wrong dose, you don’t have repercussions.

In reality, the legal costs in healthcare should be the next big trim on the cutting block - a single judgment for the $100 million against a provider somewhere in South Carolina makes insurers raise malpractice rates for all doctors everyone by huge percentages. Those costs put doctors out of business and all of a sudden you have far less providers in many rural areas and people die of preventative stuff. The stress of dealing with malpractice is so high (60% of all doctors are sued for almost entirely frivolous reasons, every single year nowadays) that doctors are now directing their kids to become nurses - higher guaranteed pay, you don’t lose your 20s to medical training, and no stress of career ending lawsuits.

If you go to a hospital for a longer illness and have to be taken care of by team of rotating health professionals, every lawsuit can name every single professional, whether they have anything to do with your damage or were just on the note for admitting you to the hospital. All of those providers then have to pay 100k to a lawyer to defend themselves, even though it’s obvious to a kid, they shouldn’t have to.

Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by refurb on Saturday July 02, 2022 @12:52AM (#31956361)
I’ll admit I haven’t thought of all of the potential consequences, but this seemed like a good idea.

Medicare collects cost data from hospitals and uses it to set their DRG payments. They have the data.

You could make some law saying providers can’t charge more than X% of what Medicare rates are. You could even make it 200% (lots of room for higher reimbursement) and it would be a massive change. You won’t have one hospital charging $2000 for an MRI and another $15,000 (actual numbers I’ve seen - the payment insurers made!).

That would force hospitals and insurers to at least keep price somewhat closer to reality and they’d need to stop the game of “ill take an insurance payment below cost for X-rays but make it up in MRI reimbursment” which is what a lot of hospital do - they look at line of service finances not procedure costs (so they don’t care if X loses money if they make it up on Y).

Problem is, most hospitals have no clue what things cost (a friend worked at a major hospital and said they’ve never calculated what it costs, all in, for say an MRI).

It would be massively disruptive for a while but eventually contracts would be renegotiated and you’d end up with bills that are at least in the ballpark of actual costs.

Re:How much health insurers pay for almost everything is abo... by thaumasiotes on Friday July 01, 2022 @09:37PM (#31955211)
> in this case we'd probably do something like Medicare + 20%, which is actually close to what most insurers do for some of the codes already.

But this is how Medicare sets its own prices - they pay a percentage of the minimum price you charge anybody else. You can't then have the non-Medicare parties charging a percentage of Medicare; that's a circular reference that could result in absolutely any price.