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Re:How Hong Kong became a police state by int_19h on Friday July 01, 2022 @12:22PM (#31948758)
In Russia, it actually did that in the 90s, but it lasted for less that a decade.

A big part of it is that the "democrats" (which was a catch-all term for all Western-minded liberals) favored a quick reset of the vestigial planned economy into a free market-based one; words like "shock therapy" were thrown around. The idea was that any inconveniences would be temporary, and more than made up for when the transition is complete.

The immediate result, however, was a significant drop in quality of life for the majority of the population, with a corresponding rise in crime. And because the "democrats" were the ones spearheading the efforts, they carried the reputational hit. This gave people like Putin the opportunity to ride to power on "strong hand" policies that were supposed to fix all that.

I grew up in Russia during that era, and remember the rhetoric then. One thing I'd say the West did very wrong was to let organizations like the IMF run wild, pushing for their (austerity-centric) ideological view of the economy through loans. Then again, from what I've read later, it wouldn't be the first or the last time they messed up a country they were supposed to help.

Re:How Hong Kong became a police state by OkayPhysicist on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:43PM (#31950912)
The baffling thing to me is how anyone thought rapid privatization was a good idea. Going from an economic system where the only way to become personally wealthy is via crime and corruption to auctioning off a country's core infrastructure can only lead to criminals ending up absurdly rich.
Re:How Hong Kong became a police state by int_19h on Saturday July 02, 2022 @12:08AM (#31956144)
Keep in mind that those people were coming from late Soviet stagnation with empty shelves and shoddy quality for anything that was available. One of the ideas floated around at the time is that, because all property in the country was everyone's, it was, in practice, no-one's; people stole what they could, and didn't care if something was a waste. So, the theory went, what you need is owners with vested interest in that property, to put it to good use and avoid waste.

Like all simple economic theories, it looked good on paper, and convincing to the crowd. Then it turned out that the new owners were largely the same people who were in charge in Soviet days, except for a few talented and lucky grifters who made their way from the very bottom to the very top.

Re:How Hong Kong became a police state by femiagbabiaka on Friday July 01, 2022 @03:43PM (#31951706)
It was a good idea in that it made a lot of people very very rich. Some folks such as the Clinton's got their fingers in both the Russian pie as well as other minor ones (in terms of wealth extracted, not effect) like Haiti.
Re:How Hong Kong became a police state by tcmart14 on Friday July 01, 2022 @12:29PM (#31948880)
Its been awhile since I've read up on that part of Russia, so I could very well be wrong. But it seemed like Russia was doomed from the beginning because almost at the onset, control was pretty much consolidated into Oligarchs.
Re:How Hong Kong became a police state by int_19h on Saturday July 02, 2022 @12:17AM (#31956188)
It was true, but the oligarchs back then didn't constitute a single ruling party. It was more like Ukraine in 2000-10s, where you had several guys who are jockeying for power, controlling various political parties to contest elections, owning mass media outlets for propaganda etc. It's not your typical ordered Western liberal democracy, but at least so long as they fight, they have to pander to the people, occasionally; and the media, while not truly free, is sufficiently diverse to produce some semblance of truth in aggregate.

(Side note: Zelensky's "Servant of the People" is available on Netflix with decent subtitles, and I would heartily recommend it to anyone in the West who wants to understand the historical trajectory of former Soviet republics - Russia and Belarus especially, of course. What I found interesting is that, while it was targeted at contemporary Ukrainians in 2015-2019, the world that it depicts was very familiar to me from my memories of 1990s in Russia, aside from uniquely local issues like the languages.)

The difference is that one of Russian oligarchs decided to make a new political puppet with a "strong man" image. He was very successful, but then the puppet decided that it can make it on its own - and did so.

Re:How Hong Kong became a police state by Ericson2314 on Friday July 01, 2022 @12:46PM (#31949147)
The oligarchs sized economic power in the vacuum of dismantled central planning.
Re:How Hong Kong became a police state by MomoXenosaga on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:34PM (#31950783)
China was already experimenting with capitalism since the late 70s- and China had a diaspora from Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore to help them. Russia had nothing.
Re:How Hong Kong became a police state by spamizbad on Friday July 01, 2022 @02:26PM (#31950654)
Totally agree. It would've been much smarter to allow Russia to slowly transition into Democratic Socialism or something like that (whatever the Russian people voted for), with critical industries retained by the state and a welfare system kept in place.
Re:How Hong Kong became a police state by femiagbabiaka on Friday July 01, 2022 @12:26PM (#31948832)
As the debt crisis deepens in Europe one has to wonder if we've learned our lessons yet. What happens to Italy next will tell the tale.
Re:How Hong Kong became a police state by BurningFrog on Friday July 01, 2022 @01:48PM (#31950052)
The experience in de-communisting Russia was also a key reason why China chose to liberalize only their economy, while keeping a firm one party grip on political power.