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Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by nindalf on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @05:24AM (#31905779)
“Only one war 60 years ago” underestimates the impact that goblins/orcs have. It’s not wars alone that cause depopulation, it’s the constant raids. The orcs have secure holds in the Misty Mountains that allow them to raid all surrounding areas at will. This keeps these areas thinly populated. The exceptions are places like Lake Town, which are highly defensible.

It’s not really possible to attack the orcs in their mountain homes for anyone except Dwarves. And even Dwarves understood their limits. In the War of the Dwarves and Orcs (TA 2793-2799) they sacked every orc stronghold from “Gundabad to the Gladden” but even then did not dare to enter Moria, where orcs remained secure and continued to multiply.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by nosianu on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @05:30AM (#31905803)
But there were not many orcs and goblins for a long time in many areas, as we learned from the books. They only came back and multiplied with the slow return-growth of Sauron.

I would be more interested in the period of when Moria was thriving - when they wrote the password for the back door right above it. Meaning, those must have been one of the most peaceful periods in the wider regions history. How dense was the population at that time?

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by Amezarak on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @05:59AM (#31905940)
> But there were not many orcs and goblins for a long time in many areas, as we learned from the books. They only came back and multiplied with the slow return-growth of Sauron.

Sauron had already returned c1000 TA to Dol Guldur. We're specifically told that evil things, such as Orcs, begin multiplying in number by c1300 TA, which triggers the migration of the Hobbits to the Shire (already we have an example of why there's less people than we expect.) In c1400 the Nazgul begin their long destruction of the disunited (perennially entangled in civil war) kingdoms of Arnor. In c1500, Gondor is embroiled in devastating wars with Harad. In the 1600s a Great Plague depopulates the North and West: "many parts of Eriador become desolate"; not long before, Gondor has had a horrible civil war. During the plague, even the Shire suffers "great loss." In the 1800s Gondor is again involved in a costly war, this time against the Wainriders, and loses its eastern territories. In 1981 TA Moria falls. In the 2400s Gondor is again under a major attack by (though they do not know it) Sauron, and Sauron is able to use the Orcs in the Misty Mountains to effectively cut off Eriador from the rest of the continent. in the 2500s, the Gondorians are bailed out of a major disaster by the appearance of the Rohirrim, but shortly after, the dragons appear and decimate the dwarves. In the 2700s, after centuries of Orc attacks in the region, the Hobbits themselves defeat a band of Orcs; shortly after, Dale and the Iron Mountain fall to Smaug, Rhoah is nearly destroyed, and Gondor is attacked by fleets of Corsairs. In addition, there is a devastating winter that causes "great suffering and loss of life"; in the same century, Smaug annihilates Erebor and Dale, and there's a major, costly war between the dwarves and the Orcs.

In the following centuries, there are continual major Orc attacks. In 2900 Men finally abandon Ithilien. In 2911 there is another devastating winter, and the year after, great floods that result in the desertion of Tharbad and Minhiriath.

The Hobbit begins in 2941. Orcs have been in force for 1600 years.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by KineticLensman on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @09:18AM (#31907304)
This is a great comment but I feel obliged to offer a real-world counterexample: Europe, which had endless cycles of war (plus a few plagues). The Thirty Years War alone killed 5m people.
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by littlestymaar on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @10:22AM (#31908055)
Non of those were genocidal wars between different species though.

The black death is a better real-life comparison point, and Europe actually took a lot of time to recover.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by nindalf on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:22AM (#31906356)
Thank you so much for this. I wrote the GP comment but I couldn’t give specific examples apart from the War of the Dwarves and Orcs. It’s been too long since I read Tolkien.
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by fallingknife on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:01AM (#31906222)
Wars and plagues every couple hundred years or so. So what you are saying is that wars and plagues are significantly less frequent then they were in pre-industrial Earth.
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by vidarh on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @08:39AM (#31906856)
"Wars and plagues" can vary in scale from having next to no impact to being world-changing events, so in isolation it tells you nothing.

One of the more common last names in Norway is still "Ødegaard", literally "Deserted farm", reflecting families who were residing on farms which still had not gotten a proper name by the time the tradition of using your fathers first-name as a last time started dying out. This even then - by the 1800's - involved re-clearing farms that had still not been re-settled after the Black Death.

Of the ca. 36500 farms which existed in Norway around year 1300, only about 16000 were still populated by 1520, and the population is believed by some sources to still have been only half of what it was in 1300. It was not until the 17th century that Norway "recovered" - that is, until it was back to pre-plague, levels, having lost several centuries of growth, but with population centres having changed, leaving many ancient farms still empty reminders.

In Norway, a disproportionate portion of the political and religious elite died. E.g. while almost the bishops in Sweden survived, all but the bishop of Oslo died in Norway. The Northern provinces of Norway were left to their own devices for a long time, without a functioning government, because so few government officials were left that the king chose to focus restoration in the South and largely just abandoned them.

That was one event.

I also don't recall running into Nazgul and Orcs while growing up near Oslo, and imagine facing that might have been a rather severe deterrent to growth.

EDIT: I'll add that Norway is a good reminder that a combination of destructive events, harsh conditions and the extremity of the hockey stick nature of population growth can explain a lot. Norway today has a population density of ~14 per km^2. In 1950 that would've been ~8. In the mid 18th century about ~3. In the aftermath of the plague, likely <1, and still <1 by the 16th century. You can still travel on foot for days through central Norway without meeting people if you stay clear of the places most popular with people out hiking for fun. A couple of centuries back, and not only would you be able to do that, but you'd have been likely to now and again come across farms that had been empty for centuries, despite centuries of a growth and recovery.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by npongratz on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @09:31AM (#31907447)
> I also don't recall running into Nazgul and Orcs while growing up near Oslo, and imagine facing that might have been a rather severe deterrent to growth.

But you did have trolls, right? :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trollhunter

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by vidarh on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @10:15AM (#31907958)
Hah! A whole lot of Norwegian folklore involves stories about how a lot of our mountains are trolls who didn't get back in hiding before the sun came out... None of them explain where there'd be enough space for mountain sized trolls to hide during the days, though.
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by Amezarak on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @08:23AM (#31906759)
No, there was constant low-level warfare for 1600 years which even directly led to the Hobbits fleeing their original home. It’s also for example the reason why the troll-wastes are desolate. The major wars and disasters were on top of that.

It’s 1600 years of an active, organizing intelligence whittling the West away and which saw the _destruction_ of multiple major kingdoms and settlements prior to the beginning of the story. The people of Arnor were nearly exterminated as a result of the Witch-King, for example. These were not wars like medieval wars. They were wars that entailed abject slavery or genocide for the losers.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by matkoniecz on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @08:28AM (#31906793)
> How dense was the population at that time?

not well defined, but it was time of significant progress in metallurgy and magic, for example greater rings of power were forged at that time.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by gostsamo on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @05:45AM (#31905871)
The shire hasn't seen any raids for generations and the only thing that protects them are a few hundred irregulars under the command of Aragorn. Another example for unexplainably depopulated region is the area between the shire and the sea. Far from the mountains, those lands are not known to have large settlements.
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by Amezarak on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @06:07AM (#31905970)
In Bilbo's youth, the Fell Winter took place, and "White Wolves" invaded Eriador.

The Great Plague some time before and the Long Winter are explicitly said to have depopulated Eriador and left it "desolate." The Rangers were also not infallible. Obviously they did nothing to stop the Nazgul or large numbers of Saruman's agents in the time of the Lord of the Rings, nor did they stop the Orc-band that invaded the Shire a hundred years before the story.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by gostsamo on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:01AM (#31906219)
See though that all of these disasters are spread over 1500 years. Most of them supposedly kill people, but they don't make the land uninhabitable and nothing stops from next generations repopulating them. Keep in mind that Europe suffers at least two big plagues, migration waves, a mini ice age and lots of other disasters. The main depopulation factors are hunger and food logistics collapse.
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by vidarh on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @08:52AM (#31907015)
Norway took a several centuries to get back to ~1300 levels after the Black Death going from ~37k farms in 1300 to still only 16k farms by 1520, nation wide (and we're not talking large farms here, in most cases). Entire regions were entirely abandoned by the government. Many farms that were abandoned after the plague where not cleared until the 1800's.

If the population density was low to start with, and food production tough, recovery from even a single major enough event can take a very long time.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by gostsamo on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @11:36PM (#31916189)
You blame it all on the black death, however, Norway was on the front line of the little ice age, so those farms might have not been populated because the land itself was not able to sustain cultivation reliably. Tolkien mentions only one bad winter, but I can allow that he wasn't well versed in climate sciences and regional climate patterns. As a result we have something that can suppress population growth to a minimal level, however, we don't have good proves in the text for such events in Middle Earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by vidarh on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @09:11AM (#31919613)
There's as far as I know nothing to support that the little ice age had much influence on the rebound of the population after the Black Death in Norway's case - you'll find documentation of farms right next to each other where one was not cleared and the other was, and where we can tell from tax records etc. once they were finally populated again that production capacity was comparable. It took centuries before the population had rebounded to the point where lesser farms were cleared again. As such it was first towards the end of the 1600's that the population was large enough to start hitting limits where the little ice age caused famine in Norway.
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by gostsamo on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @10:08AM (#31920327)
If the overall agricultural output is suppressed by LIA, then population recovery from the plague will be slowed down. From what I've found, most of Europe recovered population size before 1500. There is a Wikipedia article about medieval demography, but the data there is even more positive and I'm not linking it here.
Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by vidarh on Thursday June 30, 2022 @03:33AM (#31929669)
My point was that overall agricultural output in Norway per capita did not constrain growth again until the 1600's. The Black Death is often in Norway in fact considered to have lifted a lot of the surviving poor people out of poverty, because people previously subsistence farming on tiny plots could suddenly take on far more or more productive land and produce an excess. As I pointed out, it was not until the late 1600's that Norway faced famines again. The Black Death significantly increased food safety for the survivors in Norway. Despite this it took that long to recover the population size.

> From what I've found, most of Europe recovered population size before 1500.

Hence the reason I pointed out that Norway did not, to show that the range of possible outcomes is substantial.

Differences for Norway included a harsher climate, and a landscape that in most of the country is not conducive to large scale farming in a constrained area (outside of a tiny part of the South East, even the "flat" parts are not particularly flat, and often rocky terrain), combined with a very low population density by European standards to start with. As a result, in a lot of places, while people had productive farms, the farm locations depends heavily on the terrain and are often spaced out, and a lot of focus was on e.g. raising sheep (which could, and still are, be let out to roam the mountain sides during the summer months). Recovery faced a lot of challenges, not least of which was simply that in parts of the country the next farm over might be many hours walk over tough terrain away, and during months of the year trying to go to the nearest village might be hazardous (winter months), or people might be up in the mountains far from people. There are still a few people living in places not reachable by road in Norway (and not just by the coast where they could compensate with access by boat). There are still large parts of the country where if it wasn't for cars getting from village to village might many places take days of walking (often horses or carts would not have been an option due to terrain).

Families could go the whole year without meeting any outsiders, and as a consequence marrying off your children and ensuring the family line survived, was a major ordeal in many parts of the country even when you had plenty of food, because the production of that food in Norway, even when the climate has been "good", has meant the farming part of the population has been spread out far more than many places.

There were no major cities. By the 1600's, Bergen, now Norways 2nd largest city, with 285k people, was by one source described as "definitely the largest city in the Nordics" with ca. 15000 people, as a result of being a major Hanseatic league trading port, but while it was larger than e.g. Copenhagen, Denmark (and Sweden) had many other cities of some note, Norway did not. The old capital, Trondheim, by then had reached 5000, and the other current cities in Norway had far fewer.

Even today there are parts of the country which if you avoided car travel would seem almost as desolate as in LOTR, and the population density today is more than 10x higher than before the Black Death. In the 150 years following the Black Death, you'd have walked through a landscape that would have appeared mostly untouched by man, with the very occasional farm, sometimes days apart, which half the time would be in ruins, and the very occasional small village.

Re:Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution? by Danieru on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @11:18AM (#31908840)
You are missing the point in the fictional history which will change everything: the age of man. Of humans.

Yes humans can repopulate. And thus their era arrives. Thus your objection isn't a plot hole but part of what makes Tolkens work so interesting.