News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:DevOps is a failure by lamontcg on Sunday June 26, 2022 @09:22PM (#31889666)
> The way to do DevOps is to fire all of the Ops and then tell all of the Devs that they are now doing DevOps

That's slightly hyperbolic and I'd also argue that there's a fundamental error there since you throw away all your platform operations. Now you have dozens of operations engineers working in separate silos and no coordination and you've thrown away platform operations engineering.

What you really need to do is give all your developer teams pagers and point all their monitoring alerts at those pagers. If they setup an oncall rotation of the developers for their own software or they panic and hire a small team of operations engineers and hand them the pager it doesn't really matter. Then you have the problems of coordinating platform ops engineering with the ops team members in the software teams. Whoever handles Ops for the software teams acts as a kind of PM to interface with the centralized platform engineering roles which is responsible for coordinating across development teams to make things look consistent across the Enterprise.

The problem with the bad old ways was that software would write code and then toss if over the wall for operations to run, and all the shitty disk full pages and whatever other crashing software badness fell onto operations, and dev teams would each individually choose to ship software that was shitty to run and all the monitoring alerts would fall under a silo under a completely separate VP where they weren't responsible for their ops metrics and would chose to work on features to deliver for their management. Give the dev teams pagers and make them accurately feel the pain of running their software and then they can make choices about how much they want to abuse their own embedded operations people that they have to chat face to face with every morning at a standup. If you then fire centralized ops, though, you wind up with dozens of different operational fiefdoms inside of one company with everyone repeating the same mistakes and nobody doing the exact same thing anywhere.

I learned that back in 2006 before "DevOps" was a "word" and I don't know what you call it or if that is DevOps.

And it seems like Kubernetes is trying to be Conway's law applied to that. So you have DevOps embedded in Dev teams shipping containers which run on Kube clusters that provide compute as a service to the enterprise (often another company entirely) and the platform ops teams maintain those clusters. Except now you're entirely missing the communication that I outlined needed to happen between the operations virtual team composed of the platform ops and the embedded ops in every dev team. SREs will claim they don't need that any more and that old school SA operations is a dinosaur except that every now and then I see some SRE begging to know how to ship tcpdump to one of their containers to do some debugging and I know that they're dirty little fucking liars...

Re:DevOps is a failure by at_a_remove on Monday June 27, 2022 @12:35AM (#31890625)
It was not hyperbolic, that was what happened to my team. We had two system administrators, one who specialized in Unix and one in Windows. I was the lone programmer, having escaped a previous sysadmin position. I can do it, I don't like it, but I can do it.

Then one day I was told that our two sysadmins had been traded off and we were getting two new programmers, but they wouldn't be programmers and neither would I, we were going to be doing DevOps. I had just escaped that!

Re:DevOps is a failure by lamontcg on Monday June 27, 2022 @02:24AM (#31891228)
The fact that someone calls that DevOps doesn't make that DevOps. That is a good example of how DevOps as a term has failed though.