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Re:Supreme Court Overturns Roe vs. Wade by anon291 on Friday June 24, 2022 @12:02PM (#31864414)
Equal protection cannot protect that which is unequal. For example, I doubt an equal protection challenge to unequal lengths of maternity / paternity leave would stand, given the obvious difference in what's happening. The sexes, when it comes to things like business participation and innovation, may be equal in ability. However, if one views marriage as a precursor to reproduction -- the historical view of marriage -- then it's quite clear that the sexes are not equal, whereas the races (for whatever conception of race you have) are.

It has been abundantly clear to everyone that a black man can impregnate a white woman. And a black woman can have children with a white man. If this act (reproduction) is what marriage is about, then the sexes are not equal, and thus not worthy of equal protection. A man cannot impregnate a man. Whereas, any race can impregnate / be impregnated by any other race as far as we can tell.

If you have evidence to the contrary (that both sexes are identical when it comes to reproduction, which is the historical view of marriage Thomas may adhere to; or that various races cannot interbreed), then please do share.

Re:Supreme Court Overturns Roe vs. Wade by AlexandrB on Friday June 24, 2022 @12:07PM (#31864504)
By this logic, should marriage between a man and a woman who cannot conceive be protected? Why or why not?

> However, if one views marriage as a precursor to reproduction -- the historical view of marriage...

The historical purpose of marriage is the exchange/pursuit of status and resources[1]. Reproduction was an inevitable outcome of lack of contraceptives. The idea of reproduction being the primary purpose of marriage is pretty recent.

[1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/200505/marriage-...

Re:Supreme Court Overturns Roe vs. Wade by anon291 on Friday June 24, 2022 @12:18PM (#31864763)
'Cannot conceive' is a difficult definition, since you can't know until you've tried in many circumstances. Historically in the West, consummation of the marriage rendered it permanent. But anyway.

Historically, and actually still today, if you have actual reasons you can't conceive (for example, if a man cannot get an erection due to permanent and incurable impotence), then yes, the marriage can be declared anulled. Annulment is different from divorce because it makes it such that the marriage never existed at all at anytime. In other words, yes, certain conditions preventing conception can be used to claim that a marriage was fraudulent.

In certain legal jurisdictions, a castrated man cannot marry. While that may not always be true today, it has been the case historically. Prior to the modern day, people did operate under the assumption that those who certainly could not conceive could not marry, but of course, they didn't have the full understanding of conception we do.

> The historical purpose of marriage is the exchange/pursuit of status and resources

Yes, and the purpose of status and resources is to pass those along to your children. Also your article mainly talks about 'love' and marriage not reproduction.

> The idea of reproduction being the primary purpose of marriage is pretty recent.

This is completely baseless. Thomas Aquinas writes about the purpose of marriage as being for procreation. Given that at the time he wrote he represented an organization that represented the majority of moral thought in Europe... it's hard to actually believe these ridiculous claims. Moreover, status and resources were the main pursuit of the rich. The poor still married... usually for kids.

Source: https://www.newadvent.org/summa/5049.htm

> It would seem that the "sacrament" is not the chief of the marriage goods. For the end is principal in everything. Now the end of marriage is the offspring. Therefore the offspring is the chief marriage good.

Given that Aquinas is also pulling from historical sources (in this cases the Sentences by Peter Lombard), it's extremely likely this idea -- written very clearly in the 13th century -- originated well before then. What's modern is the claim that the chief aim of marriage in previous centuries was status / resources. Everyone in previous centuries understood that the way in which marriage produced those goods was children. A woman from one family marrying into another noble family would have little claim over her new status if the couple were unable to produce offspring. If a man had no offspring to inherit, the status and resources would end.

MORE SOURCES FROM EVEN EARLIER

In the 5th century, Augustine of Hippo clearly indicates in his treatise 'On the Good of Marriage' that offspring are one of three benefits of marriage (along with faithfulness and the sacrament of matrimony itself). In the summa, Aquinas attempts to argue which of these is the 'chief' good of marriage. Thomas believes the sacrament of matrimony itself is the chief good. Now, most here don't necessarily have the religious view of marriage (nor do they need to), but aside from the sacrament, it's faithfulness and offspring that remain. Nowhere there is status and power. And these men are again writing on the predominant moral system of the Western world for the past thousand years.

Going to secular philosophers, Aristotle (from whom Aquinas derived a lot) also consistently writes that marriage is for children. His other aims of marriage are community stability and pleasure. Again, nowhere does status and power appear.

Re:Supreme Court Overturns Roe vs. Wade by anthony_romeo on Friday June 24, 2022 @12:34PM (#31865142)
You're not suggesting this, but your line of reasoning can be applied to prevent people who are sterile from getting married.

Couples without children can adopt children, regardless of the gender of the parents.

Re:Supreme Court Overturns Roe vs. Wade by anon291 on Friday June 24, 2022 @12:40PM (#31865266)
Historically, those with obvious sterility (castrated men, impotent men, women without vaginas) could not get married. In the Catholic church, which still adheres to roman marriage laws, these are absolute impediments to marriage. In fact, permanent impotence is an impediment to marriage in many US states today. A marriage can be undone if the man was found to be impotent before the marriage was contracted, and the impotence is permanent medically.

Here's a Utah law firm offering advice on how to annul your marriage should you have found the man you married to be unable to have sex: https://www.isfma.com/law-and-order/when-ending-a-marriage-o...

Here's a review of case law in BC from the 2000s: https://disinherited.com/family-law-matters/annulment-for-no...

Scientifically, one cannot know if you're sterile until you've tried. There's no 'test' for sterility that truly works or that there hasn't been an exception too. Legally, once a marriage is fully consummated, it's more permanent than if it weren't. Historically, a marriage that was consummated could not be dissolved and was considered permanent at that point, so even if you later found out (usually after many years) that you couldn't have kids, the marriage would continue. Similar to how old people stay married.

I'm giving an historical view on marriage. Not saying how things should be. You seem incredulous at this view, but it was the prevailing view of marriage in Europe and the West for thousands of years.

Re:Supreme Court Overturns Roe vs. Wade by anthony_romeo on Friday June 24, 2022 @11:10PM (#31872191)
Thanks for your response in the other thread (FTR your reply was already flagged dead by the time I noticed it). I’m responding to that.

I understand your position. On your point about why people think marriage is a right… I suspect this is because, at present, many rights are coupled with marriage - visitation rights at a hospital being the classic example.

Re:Supreme Court Overturns Roe vs. Wade by anon291 on Saturday June 25, 2022 @11:15AM (#31875931)
For these particular rights, I think we should have a flexible kinship designation system. I don't see why you would have to have exclusivity for this right. In the madness over 'equality', I think we avoided a much better system for these rights.
Re:Supreme Court Overturns Roe vs. Wade by anthony_romeo on Friday June 24, 2022 @06:46PM (#31870469)
What do you actually believe then?