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Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by waffleiron on Friday June 17, 2022 @12:24PM (#31780556)
> The rest of us who live in the real world understand that hierarchy doesn't exist arbitrarily and we're not entitled to have someone pay us while we're spitting in their face.

And someone isn't entitled to spit in your face just because they pay you. Respect for people should go both ways, and the view that just because someone is rich, above you in the ladder, you should just shut up and take it, isn't a good one too.

Workers have very little power to fight back, yes there might be consequences but they wouldn't have written this letter if they didn't feel they weren't already living under the consequences of bad leadership.

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by bko on Friday June 17, 2022 @12:26PM (#31780586)
> And someone isn't entitled to spit in your face just because they pay you. Respect for people should go both ways, and the view that just because someone is rich, above you in the ladder, you should just shut up and take it, isn't a good one too.

How is Musk spitting in their face? By shitposting on twitter? By voting for the wrong candidate? These people need to get over themselves. Not everything is about them. They're free to leave.

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by trs8080 on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:23PM (#31781375)
> How is Musk spitting in their face? By shitposting on twitter? By voting for the wrong candidate?

You're asking questions that were answered in the letter:

"Elon’s behavior in the public sphere is a frequent source of distraction and embarrassment for us, particularly in recent weeks... As our CEO and most prominent spokesperson, Elon is seen as the face of SpaceX — every Tweet that Elon sends is a de facto public statement by the company. It is critical to make clear to our teams and to our potential talent pool that his messaging does not reflect our work, our mission, or our values."

His behavior devalues their work and denigrates the image of the companies they work for.

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by fuckcensorship on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:37PM (#31781590)
> His behavior devalues their work and denigrates the image of the companies they work for.

Then they should go work elsewhere if it bothers them that much. Nobody is forcing them to work for a company ran by Elon Musk.

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by trs8080 on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:39PM (#31781615)
Er no, as employees they're also paid partly in stock options (RSUs?). They're literal shareholders in the company, they have a say in how it's run.

And I don't know about you, but many people don't just run away when faced with a difficult situation - they face it head on and try to improve it.

Furthermore, if I spent years of my life contributing to a mission that I believe in, giving a company my best work, I'm not going to just walk away because of the actions of a single entitled individual, no matter how rich he is.

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by fuckcensorship on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:49PM (#31781761)
So employees compensated by their employer via stock options are entitled to attempt to sabotage their company’s leadership from within without repercussion?
Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by trs8080 on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:55PM (#31781860)
They're not trying to sabotage anything. They're asking for SpaceX to disassociate itself from statements made by Musk, an individual, which harm the company.
Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by andrepd on Friday June 17, 2022 @12:36PM (#31780730)
It's amazing, someone fires a bunch of people for writing an open letter, and it's the latter who need to "get over themselves". Outstanding.
Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by oh_sigh on Friday June 17, 2022 @12:51PM (#31780963)
Well yes, they need to get over themselves to the extent that they even thought their letter was appropriate in the first place, and would have no negative consequences for themselves.
Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by waffleiron on Friday June 17, 2022 @12:28PM (#31780610)
> These people need to get over themselves.

And how do you not apply this to Musk, who fired people after a bit of critique?

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by bko on Friday June 17, 2022 @12:37PM (#31780749)
It's his organization. Why is that so hard to understand? The leader and some person working there are not the same. If I hired a cleaner and she started posting publicly how shitty my interior design, I would fire this person. It's not what you pay her to do.

I would argue it was a good move. Like I said, its a distraction and completely out of line. Imagine you were managing someone and they think its okay to arbitrarily go above your head and call you out publicly. This is incredibly toxic and not a person living in the real world.

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by toomanyrichies on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:03PM (#31781134)
Technically, the organization belongs to a group of shareholders, of which Musk is one. And apparently, Musk is now a minority owner.[1] And as chairman and CEO, Musk has a fiduciary duty to the other owners to act in the best interests of the company. I would argue that he failing to abide by that directive by failing to apply the "no assholes" policy to himself (along with the other points the letter makes), thereby harming recruitment and branding efforts.

Also, you're comparing complaints about the company's double standards with a cleaner complaining about shitty interior design? Do you really think those two things are equivalent?

1. https://wccftech.com/elon-musk-now-owns-less-than-half-of-sp...

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by LouisSayers on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:21PM (#31781348)
And in the context of SpaceX, how exactly has he been "an asshole"?

People don't have to like him, but it doesn't seem he's actually done anything other than make people work hard at their jobs...

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by trs8080 on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:41PM (#31781647)
SpaceX president Gwynne Shotwell on Monday said the aerospace company's "no a--hole" work policy ensures everyone is heard and creates space for staff to propose big ideas.

"At SpaceX, we have a 'no a--hole' policy," Shotwell said in a virtual speech to graduates in Northwestern University's 2021 commencement ceremony. "These kinds of people — a--holes — interrupt others, they shut down or co-opt conversation, and they create a hostile environment where no one wants to contribute," Shotwell said. She is also SpaceX's chief operating officer.

Interrupting others stifles innovation and stops people solving difficult problems, Shotwell said.

"In short, the best way to find solutions to hard problems is to listen harder, not talk louder," she said. "Embrace the ideas of your fellow workers, especially when they differ greatly from yours."

https://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-president-gywnne-shot...

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by toomanyrichies on Friday June 17, 2022 @05:08PM (#31784402)
> And in the context of SpaceX, how exactly has he been "an asshole"?

Why does it matter whether his actions are in the context of SpaceX? He is associated with his companies (and vice-versa) to a greater extent than probably any other current head of business. Separating Musk from his companies in the minds of the public would be an exercise in futility, and his personal branding and thirst for public attention seem designed to encourage this. Therefore, every public action he takes has an effect on each of his companies, including SpaceX, regardless of whether said action took place "in the context of" those companies.

With that said, here are some of Musk's "greatest hits":

1. The tweet comparing Bill Gates to the pregnant man emoji [1]

2. referring to the guy who rescued the Thai cave divers as a "pedo" [2]

3. committing securities fraud [3]

4. tweeting that he'd start a STEM school called Texas Institute of Technology & Science (aka TITS) in an industry already rife with casual sexism [4]

5. implying that Tesla employees would lose their stock options if they unionized [5]

6. branding Tesla's driver assist technology as "autonomous", implying it requires no human intervention and therefore meets the criteria for full self-driving. [6]

The above actions range from needlessly trollish to outright illegal. One could argue that you don't build multiple billion-dollar companies without being an asshole to some of the people some of the time, but you'd be hard-pressed to argue that these are not the actions of an asshole.

1. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1517707521343082496

2. https://time.com/5339219/elon-musk-diver-thai-soccer-team-pe...

3. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/technology/elon-mu...

4. https://qz.com/work/2082746/elon-musks-tweet-captures-everyd...

5. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/998454539941367808

6. https://screenshot-media.com/technology/ai/tesla-autopilot-u...

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by LouisSayers on Saturday June 18, 2022 @12:42AM (#31787315)
> Why does it matter whether his actions are in the context of SpaceX?

Well it does matter, because these people consciously came to work at HIS company.

It's like people that move into a noisy neighbourhood and then start to complain about the noise.

Elon is eccentric, yes he tweets some things that people don't like, but he's also built friggin SpaceX...

Unless he's specifically done something to the people at SpaceX then I really don't think they've got anything to complain about... it smells of entitlement and the outrage culture that's appeared in recent years.

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by kgran on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:06PM (#31781164)
Well, you could say the same about all dictatorships, whether organizations or countries: if you don't like it, leave it (unless you can't, e. g. North Korea). But I think this argument is flawed, to say the least. After all, an employment contract (and labour law in general) acts both ways - it's not a subordination of an employee to an employer.
Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by trs8080 on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:31PM (#31781499)
"His organization"? Does SpaceX not partially pay employees in stock options / RSUs? How about other shareholders?
Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by mempko on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:04PM (#31781141)
Because people died fighting for democracy in politics. Yet we accept complete authority when it comes to our private lives. Ridiculous.
Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by cj on Friday June 17, 2022 @12:29PM (#31780625)
> Workers have very little power to fight back

Workers (especially the average HN reader) have incredible power to fight back… find a new job and switch companies. Lots a companies are hiring even with the macro economic issues.

From an employee perspective it’s insane to me that one would put so much energy into fighting their leadership rather than just leaving the company for a better one.

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by yellowapple on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:11PM (#31781218)
> Workers (especially the average HN reader) have incredible power to fight back… find a new job and switch companies.

Outside of the tech industry (and even then), this ain't anywhere near as easy as you assert. Lots of companies are "hiring"... for positions with shit pay and inflated qualifications.

> From an employee perspective it’s insane to me that one would put so much energy into fighting their leadership rather than just leaving the company for a better one.

From an employee perspective it's insane to me that one would be entirely oblivious to both the risks inherent in quitting (especially given the current economic conditions) and the notion that maybe people might like everything about their company aside from one or two things that need changed.

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by cloutchaser on Friday June 17, 2022 @12:46PM (#31780887)
Because their motivation is becoming some sort of public martyr, not actual change or principled behaviour
Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by waffleiron on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:09PM (#31781191)
That's quite a reach, this was posted in an internal Teams channel and leaked. The original authors might not have wanted to become "some sort of public martyr".
Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by jcadam on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:22PM (#31781360)
There's this long lost dark art known as "tact." Folks who came of age after the advent of social media seem to be completely unfamiliar with it.

It's something you use when trying to address a delicate subject whilst minimizing the blowback. Calling out the head of your organization publicly via a scathing open letter would not be it.

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by DangitBobby on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:51PM (#31781793)
Wasn't this a non-public communication which was leaked?
Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by thraway11 on Friday June 17, 2022 @02:15PM (#31782142)
"SpaceX, the private rocket company, on Thursday fired employees who helped write and distribute an open letter criticizing the behavior of chief executive Elon Musk, said three employees with knowledge of the situation."

First paragraph of the article.

And of course there is also this, "In an email, Gwynne Shotwell, SpaceX’s president, said the letter had made other employees “feel uncomfortable, intimidated and bullied.”"

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by DangitBobby on Friday June 17, 2022 @10:23PM (#31786789)
That doesn't answer the question, obviously. An open letter shared in a private medium is not public. I get the impression that neither the general public nor Musk himself were the intended audience of the letter.

I find the entire notion of calling for the CEO's ouster with "tact" a bit disingenuous.

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by api on Friday June 17, 2022 @12:57PM (#31781050)
Flip it over: if you worked for Apple and wrote and circulated an open letter criticizing Tim Cook's advocacy of LGBTQ rights, what would happen?

I bet you'd be fired.

I said the same thing by the way about the guy who got fired from Google for circulating a misogynistic rant about female engineers. That was also stupid and unprofessional at the very least.

Politics at work can be generally problematic. Political rants at work that criticize leadership or coworkers or are broadly offensive are probably going to get you fired.

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by adrr on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:16PM (#31781289)
Strawman to compare criticizing a gay man’s LGBT advocacy to asking a leader to stop being a jackass on Twitter. I am sure board members have made the same statements to Musk because there is fiduciary responsibility to not alienate your customers. As a shareholder in Tesla, I would love to see Musk get off of Twitter.
Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by dubswithus on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:40PM (#31781619)
What would happen if the letter criticized Tim Cook for being a homophobe for inviting MBS to Apple.

Yes, I know Tim is gay.

Re:SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking... by dsco on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:18PM (#31781304)
These people can go work for other employers, or even start competing businesses. This type of agitative behavior is detrimental to productivity and serves no purpose. If they wanted the company to succeed so much why didn’t they just become management themselves and have a positive impact that way?