News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Nuclear is back on the table for a green future by Manuel_D on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @07:37PM (#31760825)
> If in fact they were exotic and untried, billions of dollars would not already be committed to factories to produce them in industrial volume. The processes involved are used industrially billions of times worldwide every day.

Yes, for purposes different from energy storage. The massive amounts of ammonia synthesized through the Haber process for fertilizer production does nothing to demonstrate ammonia's viability for electric grid storage.

Likewise the hydrogen used in space rockets has no bearing on the feasibility of electrolyzing water, storing the hydrogen, and converting it back to electricity. If anything, the fact that most hydrogen is produced through steam reformation highlights the difficulties of electrolysis at scale.

We have plenty of experience with flywheels. Almost every car has a flywheel in it. Does that mean it's guaranteed to be extremely cheap and scalable to store electricity by spinning a bunch of giant flywheels? That's the kind of leap you're making here.

When someone actually builds and operates a facility that takes in electricity, produces ammonia, and then taps that stored ammonia to produce electricity later, then we can actually measure real-world cost of such a storage system. Until then, it's just optimistic predictions. And optimistic predictions don't actually store any energy.

[dead]
Re:Nuclear is back on the table for a green future by Manuel_D on Thursday June 16, 2022 @01:40AM (#31762760)
> Electric ammonia synthesis plants are right now under construction all over the world.

Source? I'm not finding any result for electric ammonia synthesis plants under construction right now.

The best I could find is this [1] but it's not a plant under construction, and there still significant challenges to overcome to make this viable.

> You imagine that engineers are idiots who cannot direct existing, familiar processes, unchanged, to new purposes. But engineers are not idiots. Neither are we.

Those engineers have opted not to build any of the storage systems you listed. I agree they're not idiots.

1. https://www.chemistryworld.com/features/ammonia-synthesis-go...

Re:Nuclear is back on the table for a green future by ncmncm on Thursday June 16, 2022 @03:38AM (#31763437)
Your search skills do not define the limits of investment or build-out.
Re:Nuclear is back on the table for a green future by Manuel_D on Thursday June 16, 2022 @11:07AM (#31766923)
There are no ammonia electric storage plants under construction. You write that there's many under construction, all over the world. Yet you fail to identify one such plant that's actually under construction.
Re:Nuclear is back on the table for a green future by ncmncm on Thursday June 16, 2022 @03:50PM (#31770140)
Ammonia synthesized electrically is not restricted in how it may be used. Identically the same ammonia will be used for many things: burned in combined-cycle turbines for power, burned in retrofitted cargo ships displacing bunker oil, made into fertilizer, injected as working fluid into warehouse-scale refrigeration systems, dissolved in water for window cleaner, used as feedstock in a thousand other chemical pipelines, sent abroad in tankers, mixed into hydrogen fuel to scavenge NOx. It is exactly its wide usefulness that makes it attractive. Similarly for hydrogen.

Insisting that a synthesis plant must jealously direct every last liter produced to be tanked and later burned in a local peaker turbine is fetishism. The ammonia doesn't care, and neither does the synthesis equipment owner: any customer who pays is a good one.