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Re:US quietly urges more use of Russia fertilizer to ease fo... by ozzythecat on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @03:32PM (#31744841)
> Finally, Ukraine has the right to join any alliance it wants and for Russia to invade over that is bullshit.

In geopolitics, nobody has any particular rights. Whoever has the bigger stick and better propaganda gets their way.

One could argue that there’s no reason to have sanctions on Cuba, that Palestinians should also have the right to self determination, that America doesn’t have the right to interfere in the developing world.

That’s not how the world works, regardless of right or wrong.

IMO - the west could have prevented this war. Regardless of what Ukraine wants, an agreement that NATO will not expand eastwards for 60 years in exchange for Russia not invading. That was all we needed.

Re:US quietly urges more use of Russia fertilizer to ease fo... by themitigating on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @03:35PM (#31744878)
So "do this or we'll invade"?

Why does it matter if a NATO country is on the border anyway? In the age of ICBMs, stealth bombers, and drones is the real concern that some large NATO force would march over the border for a land invasion of Russia?

Re:US quietly urges more use of Russia fertilizer to ease fo... by ozzythecat on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:24PM (#31747732)
> Why does it matter if a NATO country is on the border anyway?

This question, no matter how well intentioned, is irrelevant.

Russia views NATO as an existential threat. It’s irrelevant whether you agree with that NATO is such a threat or not. Russia does not want NATO on or by its borders. They’ve been making this clear since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

You can disagree with them, argue in favor of NATO expanding eastward, or specifically making Ukraine a member state, etc. These are all moot points.

Russia has made their position extremely clear. The war is obviously not a surprise.

Re:US quietly urges more use of Russia fertilizer to ease fo... by themitigating on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @12:23AM (#31749086)
It's not a surprise but it's still wrong. Also his opinion that NATO is a threat needs to have some backing otherwise I don't accept it as a valid fear
Re:US quietly urges more use of Russia fertilizer to ease fo... by ozzythecat on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @06:47PM (#31760396)
“Wrong” or “right” is meaningless. The only alternative is war, and that’s what we have happening now.

Tell us something. Why does it matter to the US when China tries to expand its sphere of influence over HK or islands in the Pacific?

What would happen if a Chinese bloc propagated itself to the Western Hemisphere and established an alliance with Cuba or South America?

Surely the same argument - that none of it matters in the day of nuclear weapons and ballistics capabilities - that same argument would valid, right? But would Washington stand for this? Absolutely not.

Cuba is still being punished to this day. The Monroe doctrine is still very real.

Russia warned about this for decades. The West basically told Russia that they don’t matter, that they’re a has been, and NATO will do whatever it wants.

Well, here we have the consequences. Now Bidens administration is quietly admitting that the war is becoming an economic liability for the US, but I digress.

Re:US quietly urges more use of Russia fertilizer to ease fo... by trasz on Thursday June 16, 2022 @06:34AM (#31764437)
There is a fundamental difference here: US and China are superpowers, as was USSR. Russia, however, is just Nigeria with nukes.
Re:US quietly urges more use of Russia fertilizer to ease fo... by mc32 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @03:53PM (#31745137)
Isn't it much the same as VietNam, don't help the NVA or we'll help them split and take over NV (though it worked out the other way around)?
Re:US quietly urges more use of Russia fertilizer to ease fo... by themitigating on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @03:57PM (#31745195)
Whataboutism
Re:US quietly urges more use of Russia fertilizer to ease fo... by mc32 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @03:58PM (#31745217)
Nope. It's just acknowledging how the world works (realpolitik --despite what anyone would love to think is a principled approach)
Re:US quietly urges more use of Russia fertilizer to ease fo... by themitigating on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @04:10PM (#31745377)
Our discussion was on the good and bad of the situation, that's what the pope was going on about. Doesn't matter if that's how the world works.
Re:US quietly urges more use of Russia fertilizer to ease fo... by kingofpandora on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @04:16PM (#31745456)
The US hasn't exactly dropped the Monroe Doctrine.
Re:US quietly urges more use of Russia fertilizer to ease fo... by simonblack on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @05:48PM (#31746479)
And yet doesn't recognise other countries' "Monroe Doctrines". I'm waiting for the Chinese to declare their version of the Monroe Doctrine forbidding Western Nations from East Asia. Imagine the screams from the US. <grin>
Re:US quietly urges more use of Russia fertilizer to ease fo... by trasz on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @12:40PM (#31755596)
Chinese doctrine is explained in their constitution and it’s pretty much the exact opposite of Monroe.
Re:US quietly urges more use of Russia fertilizer to ease fo... by jaybrendansmith on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @04:43PM (#31745797)
Please stop with this. Ukraine is an independent nation that can do what it wants. They may have wanted to provoke this war as Russia threatened it. That is their prerogative. It's possible they simply wanted to become part of Europe, and leave Putin, Luchenko, and the rest of the Eastern Kleptocratic Dictatorships behind. Can anyone blame them?

Sometimes it's because exactly what is obviously the reason.

Re:US quietly urges more use of Russia fertilizer to ease fo... by ozzythecat on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @06:50PM (#31760431)
> Please stop with this. Ukraine is an independent nation that can do what it wants. They may have wanted to provoke this war as Russia threatened it.

Ukraine can do whatever it wants. It was up to NATO to flat out reject any prospects of Ukraine’s membership and prevent the war, but they egged it on.

Ukraine can do whatever it wants, but the simply truth is that Ukraine is now just ground zero in Washington’s proxy war with Russia. They could have remained neutral and avoided this disaster.

Re:US quietly urges more use of Russia fertilizer to ease fo... by trasz on Thursday June 16, 2022 @06:49AM (#31764531)
Ukraine remained neutral, and yet Russia invaded it in 2014.