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Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by Zababa on Sunday June 05, 2022 @11:26AM (#31631828)
I don't really think it's fair to call parenthood a "personal choice". It's not a complete necessity like food and water, but it's also not a complete personal choice like getting a tattoo. The majority of humans are going to be parents. All living humans come from a long unbroken line of parents. It's more fundamental than a simple personal choice.
Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by jseban on Sunday June 05, 2022 @11:50AM (#31632056)
> The majority of humans are going to be parents.

Only because of the subsidies. It's hardly "natural" for all humans to reproduce.

All living humans come from a long unbroken chain of natural selection and rejection of bad genes and reproduction of only the fittest to enable adaption to a changing environment.

If you create subsidies so that every human can reproduce, you are going to reverse natural selection and create survival of the unfittest where every bad gene will reproduce endlessly.

Not having children is just as "natural" as having children, it all depends of how your particular set of characteristics do in the current environment and foreseeable future.

Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by dasil003 on Sunday June 05, 2022 @12:29PM (#31632426)
> Only because of the subsidies. It's hardly "natural" for all humans to reproduce.

This is an incredibly bold statement. Most people like having sex, and in a natural state (sans birth control, online dating, internet porn, etc) there are going to be a lot of pregnancies. The idea that tax credits, welfare or parental leave is what is driving this situation is ridiculous. This feels more like a dog whistle about the welfare state, but even if you take away those "subsidies", people ain't gonna stop having kids, that's just not how the majority of young people of child-bearing age think.

Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by jseban on Sunday June 05, 2022 @12:41PM (#31632564)
No but some men would have more than two children, and some men would have zero.

We balanced this out up until recently by sending men to war and other dangerous jobs that made them die before they had a chance to reproduce.

There is an enormous asymmetry between the sexes in our biology and that's the feature that drives natural selection and evolution.

The only reason why all people are able to reproduce are subsidies, otherwise natural selection would reject a lot.

Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by jjeaff on Sunday June 05, 2022 @01:00PM (#31632749)
That's just a silly assertion. Many developing countries have little to no subsidies in regards to children and yet their birth rates are higher.

Better medical treatments and lack of wars are not child subsidies.

Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by jseban on Sunday June 05, 2022 @01:15PM (#31632902)
> Better medical treatments and lack of wars are not child subsidies.

Lower education and religion is probably the biggest cause for these higher birth rates. In the victorian era, people would simply not get married if they didn't have the means to raise children, and they would be childless, and there was nothing strange about that. To give subsidies for everyone to have children comes from the post ww2 politics.

Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by jjeaff on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @02:01PM (#31657979)
I think the biggest cause is actually high rates of child mortality. Humans have more children when there is a higher chance those children might not survive.
Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by lotsofpulp on Sunday June 05, 2022 @01:17PM (#31632911)
If women in developing countries had financial freedom and access to easy and convenient birth control, then they would not have high birth rates.
Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by mattgreenrocks on Sunday June 05, 2022 @02:03PM (#31633371)
> If you create subsidies so that every human can reproduce, you are going to reverse natural selection

Using your own logic: if natural selection is that fragile, then it should evolve or die. We're not called to uphold it in any way; our own selfish genes inevitably predispose us not to worry about an evolutionary mechanism that does not directly affect us or our children.

Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by seanmcdirmid on Sunday June 05, 2022 @11:58AM (#31632131)
Huh? It has to work out that or the human race dies out. I guess you could have a few couples who have a lot of kids instead, but developed societies are really adverse to that.

It is “natural” in the sense that we wouldn’t be here to talk about it if it wasn’t the case.

Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by jseban on Sunday June 05, 2022 @12:13PM (#31632259)
> Huh? It has to work out that or the human race dies out. I guess you could have a few couples who have a lot of kids instead, but developed societies are really adverse to that.

Obviously the human race somehow made it until we created developed societies. I think you are confusing survival of the human race with survival of our current pension system.

Who knows if it's really better or worse to suddenly allow everyone to reproduce?

For sure it's not "natural", and as far as I can see it would actually reverse evolution to regression instead.

And it seems like we can't really stop it anyway with how many men today are becoming outsiders in society because they get rejected to reproduce.

Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by seanmcdirmid on Sunday June 05, 2022 @01:17PM (#31632912)
It’s natural only in the sense of a selection bias: we wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t so. Men aren’t the limiting resource here, but if women start having less than 2.1 kids on average, we eventually just disappear. This is just math, not related to economics, morality, or ideology.
Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by jseban on Sunday June 05, 2022 @01:34PM (#31633091)
> Men aren’t the limiting resource here

Yeah that's the point, so there really is no need for every man to have children, should it be the norm I'm wondering. Can we get rid of this natural selection, and should we? I don't know. Why is it so self-evident that every person should have children? Clearly it's not natural. It's just another artificial "equality" of a social welfare state.

Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by seanmcdirmid on Sunday June 05, 2022 @06:27PM (#31635409)
If monogamy is valuable, and I think it is, then most men should be parents as well. I can’t imagine a world with a few guys fathering most of the kids, that seems like it would cause lots of problems.
Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by jseban on Monday June 06, 2022 @01:37AM (#31637515)
You can still be monogamous if some women have more children, not every woman needs to have 2 children to achieve that average. A woman can easily have 4 children and suddenly half of the women can also be childless and still achieve a 2 children average.

The whole idea that child bearing should be perfectly and equally distributed across the whole population is a construct of the social welfare state, enabled by subsidies, and is just an artificial form of equality like any other. As such I think it should be examined and debated like everything else, and not taken for granted as self-evident or "natural".

Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by seanmcdirmid on Monday June 06, 2022 @11:48PM (#31649686)
> A woman can easily have 4 children and suddenly half of the women can also be childless and still achieve a 2 children average.

The median is close to the average in kids per women in the developed world. Having four kids is harsh on many women’s bodies; eg my grandma had 8 kids, but she died in her late 50s. While no doubt some couples will want to go for four kids or more, I don’t think it’s ethical to encourage it over a more standard 2 something for most couples.

Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by krapp on Sunday June 05, 2022 @11:36AM (#31631933)
Parenthood must be an entirely personal choice. Otherwise the implication is that "society" or government have the right to regulate bodily autonomy, force people to have children, outlaw abortion or homosexuality as "threats to society," engage in eugenics, etc.

Most would consider the implications of that to be highly immoral.

Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by jseban on Sunday June 05, 2022 @11:53AM (#31632085)
> Most would consider the implications of that to be highly immoral.

I think it's already immoral how society punishes people for being childless when it's a natural thing and can be 100% caused by characteristics that you are born with and have no control over.

Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by DangitBobby on Sunday June 05, 2022 @12:19PM (#31632322)
How does society punish you for being childless?
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Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by DangitBobby on Sunday June 05, 2022 @12:52PM (#31632689)
I guess it depends on where you live, but it is so much less expensive to be childless in the US. Monetary aid provided by the government does not cover the costs, let alone make it profitable.

And government aid is not just for unfortunate events, it's used to promote desired behavior. That's why there are subsidies for companies developing green energy and EVs, for farmers growing certain crops, for animal feed (very frustrating as someone who always has to pay more for veggie burgers), and many other things. Clearly, though, the US doesn't value parenthood very much because the monetary incentives simply are not enough. I guess when you know your replacement rates are kept afloat by immigration, you don't care much if your citizens have kids.

It's funny that you say being social is easier, because what I see is the opposite. Being a parent isn't a panacea for socialization. It can be very isolating when your childless friends can drop whatever they are doing to go have a good time (so they don't bother to make plans, they just go) while you have to secure a babysitter just to get a quiet dinner. Your friends have to accommodate you, and many will not.

As someone who is currently childless with both new parent friends and not-so-new parent friends, it's very clear to see how much simpler it is for the ones of us who don't have kids have to be social or follow their own interests.

I feel in no way compelled by any law or incentive to have children and am in fact dreading the day my wife is serious about having them, because I have seen first hand what it does to your bank account and your personal life.

Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by jseban on Sunday June 05, 2022 @01:11PM (#31632854)
> It can be very isolating when your childless friends can drop whatever they are doing to go have a good time

Yeah parents can't have as much spontaneous fun, but they don't have to deal with unhealthy loneliness of being alone on thanksgiving, christmas, vacations etc. Society is organised for the family unit, and there are no options for single people.

Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by krapp on Sunday June 05, 2022 @12:17PM (#31632295)
Yes, both can be immoral.
Re:Restarting my career after motherhood by 7952 on Sunday June 05, 2022 @11:39AM (#31631962)
Yes, people can have very strong instinct to have a baby. It is unreasonable to expect people to suppress that.