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Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by ChrisMarshallNY on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @08:54AM (#31581116)
>

    1. Giving them something interesting to work on
    2. Showing them that they won’t gradually be asked to take on BS assignments over time
    3. Letting them take every friday to go fishing or whatever it is they do

#1 would have been fine, for me. When I left my job (after 27 years, running a C++ image processing shop), I was looking for work that was interesting to me. I had my retirement set, and would have been quite happy to take a good deal less than many.

I have a pretty vast and varied skillset. I'm not famous, and never have been interested in that stuff, but I did work for a very well-known company, at a pretty deep level. I had an almost "perfect match" of skills for a startup (and I didn't mind taking a bit of a risk, as my retirement was set, anyway). I was looking for places where I could make a difference.

I also have an enormous portfolio of work, so there's absolutely no question at all, about what I can and can't do. Take fifteen minutes, browsing some of my repos, and it will tell you a lot more than some "Draw Spunky" leetcode test.

I was appalled at the way that I was treated -even by small shops (actually small shops and recruiters were the worst. Big shops treated me fairly well, but didn't have a compelling draw). I have come to learn that this was directly because I'm older. I was unaware of the animosity so many young folks have against us; but I am now painfully aware of it.

In my case, I just gave up, and accepted that I'm retired; whether or not I want. I found some non-profit folks that couldn't afford to pay me, and I work with them. I pop out a couple of small apps; from time to time; just to stay in practice, while I work on bigger stuff.

Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by onlyrealcuzzo on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @10:16AM (#31582093)
> I have come to learn that this was directly because I'm older. I was unaware of the animosity so many young folks have against us; but I am now painfully aware of it.

I think it's less animosity and more incompetence.

I remember once when I was younger - around ~26 - being interviewed by a ~22 year-old fresh out of college, and the interview was more like a college test.

What relevance did this have to what I would do at the company? Most likely - nothing.

But this was basically all this person knew.

The younger you are, the less ability you have to 1) know what's valuable, and 2) assess it.

Not that this is a particularly easy thing for anyone to do.

That being said - younger people are going to place close to no value on your decades of battle scars and experience. They don't have any. They probably like to think it's not worth anything - because it makes them feel better about not having it.

You know - never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

I'd also caution on the things you perceive to actually be animosity - they're probably mostly jealousy. You're someone who has WAY more options available - so you can be demanding and picky about your employer. Younger people might hate that - but that's really jealousy. They probably don't actually hate you. There's a big difference.

Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by caffeine on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @03:31PM (#31586834)
I was a younger, inexperienced tech lead sitting in on an interview led by an engineer about 10 years older than me.

I was shocked when he spent the whole hour asking soft questions like “So describe your previous team structure. How did ideas and plans arise? Who took responsibility? How was conflict resolved? What were your impressions?”

I always went hard on technical stuff when interviewing, was always worried that an incompetent would sneak through.

I asked the senior engineer his rationale. He told me “This guy went to X school and got Y degree and worked at Z company. So I know he’s smart enough. And I can teach him to write good software. But I can never teach him not to be a prick.”

Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by klysm on Thursday June 02, 2022 @05:11AM (#31592888)
I think people say that and interview like that till they get a bad hire.
Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by ChrisMarshallNY on Thursday June 02, 2022 @06:04AM (#31593161)
I interviewed like that for 25 years.

I did get a couple of "bad hires," but never for tech reasons.

Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by caffeine on Thursday June 02, 2022 @10:20AM (#31595230)
To be fair, all the other interview rounds were with more junior, low-EQ CS nerds like me, so he could still be pretty confident the candidate would get a good grilling.
Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by ChrisMarshallNY on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @10:31AM (#31582314)
Good point.
Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by version_five on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:54AM (#31581832)
An anecdotal observation: working at a startup, I found that they were able to get some highly experienced developers, but had filled most of the management positions with young, inexperienced people. I didn't see ageism, rather than just bad management that didn't understand how to work with experienced people because they had this beginner notion that managing means "telling what to do" instead of coordinating. I suspect that kind of behavior is at the root of challenges like you saw, junior "leaders" who think they have the be the superior of other teams members because of some notion of hierarchy.
Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by cageface on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:30AM (#31581554)
I’m over 50 and recently did a job search and I have to say this wasn’t my experience. I had to do all the same coding tests etc that all the other candidates did but I never felt like I was treated with disrespect. Maybe I just got lucky or maybe it was because the tech job market was still extremely frothy but I was braced for a bad experience that never came.
Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by ChrisMarshallNY on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:35AM (#31581610)
I'm glad to hear it.

I suspect that part of the reason is that the smaller shops I looked at were based in Brooklyn.

Brooklyn's agesim is much worse than Silicon Valley. Also, I was interested in the kinds of startups that are probably dominated by energetic younger folks. I do native Swift (Apple) stuff, and have a lot of experience with things like SDKs, and hardware control/communication.

The bigger shops tended to have a lot less interesting work, but were also a lot more "stolid" in their approach to recruitment.

Like I said, I was looking for work that I found interesting. I'm sure I would have been able to find work that was less motivating.

As it has turned out, what I'm doing now, is highly motivating, and I no longer have a desire to go back to the rat race. In the aggregate, I'm glad things turned out the way they did. A couple of startups missed out, but I'm sure they'll be OK. I'm not God's gift to programming. I know that I am doing great.

Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by hguant on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @10:02AM (#31581932)
>Brooklyn's agesim is much worse than Silicon Valley

Is that a Brooklyn/hipster thing, or a NYC finance culture thing seeping into the tech world?

Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by ChrisMarshallNY on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @10:29AM (#31582284)
That’s a good question, and I’m not entirely sure. I have ideas why, but I don’t think it’s helpful to speculate. It’s not like anyone is actually willing to change things.

In my experience, “classic” companies (which now include former “rebels,” like Meta, Google, and Apple) are more likely to be professional and courteous (we won’t talk about IBM, though), when it comes to dealing with older folks.

I’ll bet that my experience as a manager also spikes my chances. I have no interest, whatsoever in being a manager again, but it gave me some great viewpoints and experience with things like strategy and pitching.

Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by csomar on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:51PM (#31584635)
> I’m over 50

> I had to do all the same coding tests

I don't know man.

Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by cageface on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:38PM (#31585319)
I've worked with people my age that stopped updating their skillsets literally decades ago so I don't think it's fair to expect employers to take your abilities on faith.

I also deliberately avoided companies known for leetcode style interviews although I can do those kinds of tests too.

Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by ChrisMarshallNY on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @02:57PM (#31586453)
> I don't think it's fair to expect employers to take your abilities on faith.

I have a current portfolio that is massive.

In fact, I just got done updating several apps and packages, so it's current as of about five minutes ago.

I wouldn't dream of taking me on faith. I never did, as a hiring manager, but I was also fairly good at evaluating folks. I would have killed for the kind of info I can provide; which makes it really weird, that people immediately dismiss it.

In any case, that's all water under the bridge, these days. Barn doors, horses, etc.

Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by cageface on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @06:27PM (#31588936)
I also only interviewed for 100% remote positions at startups, mostly doing fairly common React/Rails kinds of stuff so we might have been targeting different markets.

In any case if you're financially in a position that you can work on whatever you want it sounds like things might have worked out for the best despite the unpleasant interviewing experiences?

Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by ChrisMarshallNY on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:11PM (#31590162)
Yeah. I had to get pushed out of the nest. I wouldn’t have done it on my own.

I’m not gonna be zipping around in a Bentley, but I live humbly, anyway.

I never realized how important it is to be truly happy with my vocation, until I was forced into it.

Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by kevstev on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @11:48AM (#31583633)
Completely agree. I recently left a top hedge fund, and for a period around 2019, their hiring process got so silly that it could be succinctly described as they only wanted to hire Linus Torvalds to do linux administration. Around this time, a previous boss of mine was back in the market, at least theoretically, and I convinced him to at least have a conversation with my firm. I even spoke with the HR recruiter beforehand, and was like listen, you need to sell Impact here, and not just in dollar terms, but in organizational change, openness to open source, etc... and the HR rep seemed pretty taken aback- they seemed to feel that just the name on the wall should be all thats needed.

It was so ridiculous though, you aren't going to get people that have defined internet standards, started successful companies, invented important things... to come work at a place to bang out Jiras and get beat up over made up deadlines. And on top of that they were being completely inflexible and were not allowing remote work. Even if you pay them 7 figures, most of these types are already independently wealthy and that's not their motivation at that point in their careers.

Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by mistrial9 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:23PM (#31585105)
I had a similar experience with less stellar product history but solid computer science and current practice. Many of those advertising were associated with phones+web .. those people are actively dismissive of previous software development, and leaned heavily on the whiteboard interrogation and control session. What a negative.. meanwhile, I found out that a skilled co-worker on the net, with excellent English, better modern C++ than me, and domain knowledge, was working for about $27/hour USD out of Poland and London. After covid-19, I discovered some abusive contracting companies who were treating young males very harshly and inflating their credentials.

I really did not expect this, I got negative seniority and quick NO from people with money.

Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by mamcx on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @11:57AM (#31583800)
Being older requiere adjustments in how you sell yourself, imho.

I think is a losing proposition go to be another "employee", you are a mentor, a consultant, or something alike. Be in the "same" pool than younglings not work because you are not in the range, but playing good the "nice grandpa" can works well, imho.

Also: In the case of small companies is easier to "own" the interview process if is totally pointless or wrong. Take the experience and run with it: If fizbbuzz is on the path, derail the conversation and show something more impressive and how it could be teached to the team (this is by accident something that happened to me in one of my earlier roles long ago: I already bust the first interview and the second time I only remember going for the same company on site (!)... but that time I just sit with one of the developers and talk/code a little about something cool...)

Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by mizzao on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @11:12AM (#31583006)
Want to come check out https://parsnip.ai - "Duolingo for cooking?" We're here in NYC.
Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by belval on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:10PM (#31584916)
I really like the idea, do you have plans to release on Android?
Re:What good cash-strapped hiring looks like by mizzao on Thursday June 02, 2022 @05:54PM (#31600991)
I'm as surprised as you to announce that as of yesterday the answer is yes: https://parsnip.substack.com/p/engineering-plot-twist