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Re:Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s ... by roenxi on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @06:28AM (#31580002)
Usually yes, but some technologies are so powerful they do reshape what is possible for society. Things like birth control, the internet, military technologies like cavalry or guns, the development of limited liability corporations. These things are more powerful than mere laws in what they accomplished.

Privacy-coins could be the next big one. It switches accounting from being a tool of coercion (c.f. the famous case of the Canadian truckers) to something like air which just cannot practically be denied.

If politicians banded together and behaved like civilised adults then crypto would be worthless. But they aren't about to try that sort of radical change, so this tech might actually solve a lot of problems. With something like Monero I really do not see, at any level, how they could stop me doing stuff like donating to political causes I agree with. That is scary in some ways, but there is also reason to be optimistic.

Re:Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s ... by RandomLensman on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @06:42AM (#31580073)
I'd would say none of the technologies listed even closely approach the impact of social technologies such as rule of law, democracy, etc.

If your fellow citizens in aggregate really don't like what you do and want to stop you, the will eventually find a way. You want a society that does not police where money flows - which is a big change and there is no evidence that broadly people like to open the taps on things like terrorist financing, slave trading etc. So there will likely be some limits that societies like to enforce.

And of course they could attack crypto by taking over mining, policing any sale of hardware, making touching any crypto a felony, clamp down harder on any cause you want to donate to, etc. They might not win completely, but they might make things pretty uncomfortable for most that would want to use it.

Re:Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s ... by roenxi on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @06:46AM (#31580096)
Nobody likes homelessness. How is democracy going at putting an end to it? The list of similar examples is endless; democracies are forced to put up with a lot of stuff that nobody likes when everything that is tried turns out not to work.

Democracy is a very powerful technology, no argument there. But it can't overcome technical realities. It is better at adjusting to them and giving up when the cost gets too high.

Re:Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s ... by RandomLensman on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @06:58AM (#31580174)
Nobody likes homelessness, but do people care about it enough to vote for people with an agenda for it or pay for it to change?

And no, technologies do not freely diffuse through societies, some stuff remains pretty firmly in highly policed boxes when the cost of letting it run free is deemed to high (can you just go buy nuclear weapons, for example?). Who is to say that the cost of banning crypto would be too high - I have not seen the evidence for that (also not really for a ban, either)? That is a political decision, not a technical one. And, yes, there can be bad decisions with really high costs, no doubt.

Re:Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s ... by roenxi on Thursday June 02, 2022 @07:55AM (#31593753)
> ...do people care about it enough to vote for people with an agenda for it...

Yep. Happens regularly.

> ...or pay for it to change?

And nope, certainly not. But crypto will fall into the same category - stamping out the ability to do the - rather simple - necessary maths would require horrific compromises that are simply not supportable. This technology has radically altered the power balance of moving funds around. Sure that isn't sunshine and roses, but at least we don't have to worry about so much about asset freezes.

Re:Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s ... by RandomLensman on Thursday June 02, 2022 @10:47AM (#31595554)
I don't think asset freezes are high on most people's agenda in first world countries. And the developing world does not have the GDP to move how things are done in the large economies for now.
Re:Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s ... by roenxi on Friday June 03, 2022 @07:06AM (#31606755)
Sure it is. Every so often the government rolls in and reallocates wealth to the wealthy - eg, as happened in '08 and is famously memorialised in the Bitcoin genesis block. Dealing with asset shenanigans like freezes is exactly why the crypto project started. If you've got no assets then sure, ignore that. Otherwise it makes sense to start tallying the risks against government seizures.

Plus asset freezes are on the cards for shutting down protesting truckers. If we're living in a world where the Canadian government can attack truckers (of all people) with asset freezes why can't it happen to you or me? I don't see the much difference between myself and a Canadian trucker. I suppose I couldn't handle working hard for more than about 6 hours at a time.

Re:Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s ... by RandomLensman on Friday June 03, 2022 @07:24AM (#31606880)
Do you have any data backing up that asset freezes are high on most people's agenda? Where I live certainly it is not, doesn't even show up in any surveys etc. and the asset freezes at Canadian truckers are/were not really much of a news item (living in large European country). I can see that trust in banks has eroded a bit (still surprisingly high) but asset freezes or seizures are not a thing in the public eye where I live.

I can believe that for some people the topic is high on the agenda, but really "most"?

Re:Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s ... by pjc50 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:08AM (#31581283)
I think every time the subject comes up we find that people (not themselves homeless) do like homelessness, and regard it as a suitable punishment for failing to contribute to society, being mentally ill, or using hard drugs.
Re:Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s ... by saurik on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @06:35AM (#31580032)
> the development of limited liability corporations

I generally agree with you but don't understand this example: the concept of an LLC is not a technology that stands against law in a way that forces the law to adapt but is a construct that only exists by the grace of law... like, what would it mean to illegally form an LLC in a world that didn't agree with such actions?

Re:Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s ... by roenxi on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @06:44AM (#31580083)
Ah yes, sorry. I may have left out a few steps in the thinking.

A country that doesn't adopt LLCs or some similar method of pooling risk will tend to get overrun by a country that does. So people can try to stand against the tide by not allowing pooled risk and capitalism, then 50-100 years later the capitalists role over them because the wealth gap has gotten so large there isn't room for meaningful resistance.

Kind of like what happened between the USSR and the US, or Europe v. All Other Civilisations. You can technically choose not to use the legal ideas, but that is really just choosing to be overwhelmed by more organised groups of people. Much like how a military that refused to use guns would get overwhelmed by one that does.

Re:Tech experts urge Washington to resist crypto industry’s ... by pjc50 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @09:07AM (#31581272)
> how they could stop me doing stuff like donating to political causes I agree with

Like I said upthread, this lasts until the second plane strikes the tower.

The invasion of Ukraine by Russia brought a huge, unprecedented wave of financial sanctions. If cryptocurrency actually worked for private, uncensorable transactions, they would have shrugged this off and moved to Monero. Perhaps we shouldn't rule this out. But remember the level of law changes to privacy and surveillance rolled out after 9/11 as well. We've not yet seen the first terrorist attack that would not have been possible without uncensorable cryptocurrency funding; the response to that will be something to behold.