I'm looking outside right now and the landscape is far from hellish. Public transit is a great option for many trips and cars certainly have some downsides, but it sure is nice to be able to drive my car to pick up bulk groceries at Costco.

Oh, taking a car to get to Costco is awesome. When I lived on my own and shopped via walking I'd still occasionally borrow a friends time to do a big run with them to pick up canned goods, flour, etc... the stuff that's heavy and that you buy in bulk.

But in America, if you want half a pound of pastrami you're probably going to have to get in a car to get it unless you live in one of the few areas that still follows that sort of dense city planning.

> hellish landscape where cars are the norm for getting to the work or picking up groceries

To each their own.

I've never quite understood why the anti-car crowd is so prone to hyperbole with their criticism of the status quo. "Hellish Landscape", really?

I might not use that hyperbole myself but if you've ever had to sit through LA traffic day in and day out it's really not that hard to imagine why people get upset about it. Yeah if you live in the middle of nowhere it's a different story.

Different strokes for different folks.

To me, the "hellish landscape" is the NYC subway system (arguably the best in the US).

While I live in NYC and not LA, I'm a frequent visitor to LA. I'd gladly sit through LA traffic over riding the NYC subway. Sitting in my own personal, clean, climate controlled space, listening to music I enjoy.

I've never been to NYC but I never realized how much I would prefer a good public transit system until I visited Seoul. I probably wouldn't use a car much if at all if I lived there. I suspect NYC is still a pretty low bar for what public transit could be, best in the US isn't saying much when most cities have practically nothing to begin with.

Completely agree. I lived in Seoul for a bit (I'm Korean American) and it is still by far the best subway system I've experienced.

I would gladly use Seoul's subway. I only grudgingly use NYC's (and nowadays, I bicycle as much as I can to avoid using it).

Ah cool makes sense, thanks for the comparison. I have definitely noticed that outside the obvious downsides of most American public transit (mainly, longer commute, often still stuck in traffic, having to pay close attention to the schedules at all times, etc), the commute options are also often noticeably dirtier or filled with a lot more homeless people who are sometimes not totally there mentally and that's certainly something that would have to be addressed to see mass adoption. Obviously I think public transit should be open to everyone regardless of socioeconomic background but practically speaking it also needs to be palatable for most people, not really sure what the solution would be.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever been to Tokyo? I feel I've heard good things about its public transit but have only visited so briefly I didn't get much chance to use it myself.

Yes, have also visited Tokyo a few times. The Tokyo subway is also fantastic, certainly mountains better than NYC’s. But I’d rank Seoul’s as slightly better still.

FWIW many discussions that criticize any aspect of NYC’s subway system often gets shut down with “but we have 24/7 service and they don’t”. Personally, I feel 24/7 service is a contributing factor to the NYC subway’s problems.

Yes. Really.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDXB0CY2tSQ

I'm looking at it from the perspective of what I consider truly hellish. Is suburban sprawl bad, sure. But let's be honest, how does any of what was shown in that video compare to a warzone, a slum in an underdeveloped country, or some polluted Superfund site?

When I think "hellscape", I think of this, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agbogbloshie

Hyperbole is a literary tool - please don't pedantically pick at my word choice. It doesn't lead to interesting discussion.

If you're going to use provocative words you should be prepared for some pushback when people challenge the appropriateness of the terms you've chosen.

Well - there's been an excessive discussion focused on my usage of the term "hellscape" and seemingly no pro-car discussion to my actual comment. It feels quite nitpicky to swoop in to criticize a specific term used without actually discussing what that term was contained within.

I'm not even particularly pro-car. One does not have to disagree with your broader perspective in order to be critic of your word choice. I see your frustration as something that comes with the territory. When you use hyperbole in your rhetoric you risk people taking issue with the specific allusion and proceeding to refute it. Probably because refuting that hyperbole can be seen as diminishing the rest of your argument.

The real Hell is a place of infinite and everlasting torment, so all Earthly comparisons are by necessity hyperbole.

Thanks for linking that - it's quite a well put together run down of how big the contrast really is.

A city made up of car parks.