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Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by nradov on Friday May 27, 2022 @09:37AM (#31529490)
The CPI includes rent (and owner's imputed rent). No one needs to purchase real estate. That's an investment, not a living expense. Millions of people have started families in rented homes.
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by onlyrealcuzzo on Friday May 27, 2022 @09:57AM (#31529705)
You don't need to purchase a home - but historically - if you did - you've been much better off financially.

It's the same as saying you don't NEED to go to college. No, you don't. You don't need much of anything... But if you did go to college - whether through correlation or causation - statistically you are much better off.

So if college and housing get out of reach for most people - then maybe they will be worse off.

Who knows? Maybe it is all correlation and no causation.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by throw0101a on Friday May 27, 2022 @12:45PM (#31531692)
> You don't need to purchase a home - but historically - if you did - you've been much better off financially.

[citation needed]

Per the The Credit Suisse Global Investment Returns Yearbook 2018, the global return for real estate from 1900 to 2017 was 1.3%, while stocks returns 5.2%:

* https://www.credit-suisse.com/media/assets/corporate/docs/ab...

Rent is often cheaper than mortgage payments, and is very more often cheaper than mortgage payments plus the cost of maintaining a home. If you take the difference and investment you can have just as must equity in a few decades. Preet Banerjee goes over the math in this ten minute video:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAMeI4uHAFE

He rents:

* https://www.speakers.ca/2013/10/preet-banerjee-sold-his-hous...

If you want to know when it makes financial sense, the "5% Rule" by Ben Felix is a decent place to start:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9Golcxjpi8

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwl3-jBNEd4

Until recently he was a renter, but purchased a house 1-2 years ago. Not exactly happy with the decision though:

* https://www.youtube.com/shorts/L5SAF0SHD1w

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by onlyrealcuzzo on Friday May 27, 2022 @04:58PM (#31534802)
Real estate is leveraged - often times in the US 33:1. Stocks aren't.

You also have to factor in that it's a hedge against inflation on rent, and that part of your rent payment is going to principal, and that your mortgage interest is tax deductible.

If you think the average return for the S&P 500 unleveraged beats owning a PRIMARY RESIDENCE on 5:1 leverage, when your marginal tax rate is 45%, and interest rates are 2.7% on a 30-year fixed... I guess time will tell, but it is INCREDIBLY unlikely.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by throw0101a on Saturday May 28, 2022 @02:09PM (#31542419)
> Real estate is leveraged […]. Stocks aren't.

Leveraging in stocks:

* https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/marginaccount.asp

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by chii on Friday May 27, 2022 @10:15AM (#31529885)
> You don't need to purchase a home - but historically - if you did - you've been much better off financially.

it's not the purchase of the home that made you better off financially, but the ability to purchase a home.

If you had that ability, investing in another asset at the same leverage level (such as shares) would net you even more financial income (obviously, its higher risk).

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by jandrese on Friday May 27, 2022 @12:54PM (#31531824)
> If you had that ability, investing in another asset at the same leverage level (such as shares) would net you even more financial income (obviously, its higher risk).

This sounds like Reddit "live in your Mom's basement to save on rent" type financial advice. It doesn't work if you have to use that money to pay rent. Rents tend to be about the same or more than a mortgage. If you happen to live in an area where rents are considerably lower than a mortgage than this is an outside possibility, but this also depends on your rents not skyrocketing over the course of 30 years. One of the great things about 30 year fixed loans is that they allow you to ride out market insanity.

This is the dirty little secret of these housing bubbles. It's mostly the poor who get seriously burned, because people with money have mortgages. They don't have to find a way to pay a rent that increased 40% this year. In fact many of the people are the landlords who are enjoying a massive windfall thanks to the housing crisis. They have an incentive to make sure it continues.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by TimPC on Friday May 27, 2022 @11:18AM (#31530598)
Depends where you're talking about in Canada from 2001 to present day the average return of housing has beat the stock market. There is also a question of what amounts you're investing. Paying down a mortgage is sort of like having ever declining rent, but if you're investing in the market instead you face ever increasing rent so the amount of the investment is different between the two scenarios.

For instance, after paying off a mortgage entirely, my housing costs will be effectively repairs, property tax and utilities. That's a tiny fraction of rent. Meanwhile over 25 years property prices have more than tripled so it's likely the renter's rent would have gone from $1500/month to $4500/month or so. If you have $7000/month for both cost of living and savings then putting $5500/month into whatever assets you choose now that your home is paid off is going to generate much better returns than putting $2500/month into whatever asset you choose after paying off your inflated rent.

Alternatively, you can buy the home purely as an investment rather than a place to live. In this case, you have rental costs either way but you don't just make the capital gains on the home you also make rental income from renting it out. Typically rental income can be around 6% of property value. If you add that to the 7.5% returns to property YoY since 2001 you get 13.5% returns. You will have some expenses to deduct from that so your net returns might end up around 11%. That's still demolishing the stock market returns.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by chii on Saturday May 28, 2022 @02:43AM (#31538136)
> For instance, after paying off a mortgage entirely, my housing costs will be effectively repairs, property tax and utilities. That's a tiny fraction of rent.

no, if you paid off the mortgage, then the cost of your "rent" is just the cost of the capital sitting in the house (plus those maintenance costs you mentioned).

There's no such thing as free living. it is possible that rent is more expensive - but over time, this ought to normalize, as expensive rent will incentivize build-to-rent and arbitrage the difference to make a profit.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by TimPC on Saturday May 28, 2022 @03:58PM (#31543251)
In a world of zoning and NIMBYs I very much doubt the market adjusts in any way that resembles an efficient market.

At most the portion of the rent I get from my capital is the difference between deploying the capital in the market and the return to housing. Since housing has historically beat the market that suggests a zero or negative rent for investing in housing.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by chii on Saturday May 28, 2022 @11:16PM (#31546021)
> Since housing has historically beat the market

this is not true unless you only start counting from the past 10-20 years, and only include regions that _did_ beat the market, rather than globally.

see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rvY2rIxdsA

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by TimPC on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @01:44PM (#31572493)
If you measure the capital returns of housing as buying a property and letting it sit empty it doesn't beat the market. But renting a property returns roughly 6% of capital in most markets, and Canada-wide housing prices have gone up 7.5% a year over the last 20 years. Even if it costs you 2.5% of the home price to rent the property (this is a high estimate) that suggests making 11%/year over the last 20 years. If you go back longer, the capital curve for housing gets slightly lower and you might eventually get only 9% returns counting capital income and rental income. But markets still haven't returned 9%/year.
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by onlyrealcuzzo on Friday May 27, 2022 @11:14AM (#31530550)
False - investing in shares on margin would get you margin called and bankrupt in many time-scales. A house can't be margin called (if you can't afford the debt service, you can still end up bankrupt).
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by nradov on Friday May 27, 2022 @12:10PM (#31531250)
That's a non sequitur. Investing in real estate can be a good financial option for many people, but it's irrelevant to the CPI. The Federal Reserve publishes reports on household wealth and the home ownership rate if that's what you want. Current home ownership rate is 65%, so obviously it's within reach for most people. College enrollment levels are also near record highs, so while expensive it's not out of reach either.
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by Dudeman112 on Friday May 27, 2022 @09:57AM (#31529710)
>That's an investment, not a living expense.

Owning a home isn't just an investment, it's QoL.

Renting is shit, and raising kids in rented space is shit too. If someone moderately cares about their QoL and isn't enamoured with the idea of popping kids not having their own place won't help with deciding to make kids.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by nradov on Friday May 27, 2022 @12:47PM (#31531720)
Some people find that renting is better from a QoL perspective. Owning is shit if you hate having to deal with home maintenance, or travel a lot, or have to move frequently for work. Others prefer the stability of owning.

But so what? Nothing in your comment is relevant to inflation calculations.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by ClumsyPilot on Friday May 27, 2022 @10:07AM (#31529803)
Millions of people have started families in slavery too. And during the plague.

What wisdom does this argument lead us to - basic hygene and human right are superfluous?

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by nradov on Friday May 27, 2022 @12:43PM (#31531646)
Renting a home is in no way comparable to slavery. Your comment is offensive, inflammatory, and off topic.
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by ClumsyPilot on Friday May 27, 2022 @02:44PM (#31533268)
I think you are misunderstanding my argument - the statement is not 'renting is like slavery'

The argument put forward previously was 'people were starting families without X, therefore people not having X isn't a problem', where X was a house.

I was trying to demonstrate that no matter what you substitute for X, even something extreme like basic human rights, people were still starting families, therefore either we should not be concerned about anything, or the argument is flawed.

Also many people were rendered homeless or pushed into poverty by the current housing crisis, and I am sure those folks find the argument proposed above offensive and inflammatory.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by imtringued on Saturday May 28, 2022 @09:00AM (#31539998)
You're saying people that decided that only a subset of the people that want to live there should live there are angry that they got to be excluded by their own favoured policy? They are plain hypocrites.
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by ntoskrnl on Friday May 27, 2022 @09:57AM (#31529700)
A place where you live is not a living expense? That line of thought is how we got here in the first place. Things break in a house all the time, and it costs money to maintain. A house should be treated as a depreciating asset. We'd all be better off. (I say this as a homeowner btw)
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by nradov on Friday May 27, 2022 @10:01AM (#31529748)
A real estate investment is not a living expense. Home maintenance is covered by other items in the CPI basket. I assume you've never read through the list? It's quite extensive.
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by recursivedoubts on Friday May 27, 2022 @09:42AM (#31529538)
"you'll own nothing and you'll like it"
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by smn1234 on Friday May 27, 2022 @09:55AM (#31529677)
agreed to an extent - have rents prices (adjusted) ever been so high throughout history to make renting more difficult to afford than owning in many cases