Yep, standing up on your own is one of the core American values I believe has been lost to the American Education System. Although I have not been to an American high school or Middle School, the school at which I was definitely had western values and taught that violence was and will never be the option. That you oughtta let the _system_ solve it. But the system has a ton of bureaucracy. I think that we let so many things go by because taking justice into your own hands is bad.

Anyways, I digress. But here are some of my thoughts: I just got from a three-day trip to Monterrey, a city in Mexico. This is where my mom and dad went to college. Yet there is this vibe, always, either inside or outside the school that just feels like _everyone_ is always hustling. Making their lives work. Going to big measures to achieve their dreams, whether legal or not. I met a wealthy guy, interesting acquaintance. We talked about life. One of the main things he said to me was that - emphasizing that although it's cliché it's just too true - "the universe is yours. take it."

And this just rings too true for me, I think that our education has decoupled from American values. Or maybe those values were already broken to begin with. My point is, bureaucracy has led us to do unimaginable things and not see "action -> result." Yet we were raised by our parents telling us that dreams will come true with hard work and effort. We are all socially forced to follow the rules, not skipping lines, etc. But it feels more and more like those lines are crossed everyday and goals are more important.

Do you realize you're arguing that people need to stand up on their own in a thread about a mass shooting of children? In the twisted viewpoint of the killer, he stood up for himself, by attacking others. Instead, he should have let the system help him.

I think the way to interpret that comment is that if the killer had simply gotten into a fist fight after class, like many of us here (including me) did to resolve disputes, things probably would've gone differently.

I was viciously bullied from 3rd grade through 6th and eventually stopped it through physical violence. The guy who bullied me (we exchanged black eyes on multiple occasions) ended up being one of my best childhood friends and I attended his father's funeral last year after he was killed in a tragic accident. Fighting amongst boys is normal.

Read the parent of my comment. I was addressing bullying.

But yeah, it's true. One could argue that the school shooter was doing this for himself, which of course isn't something I'd wish on anyone. I think that these teenagers feel helpless, without any purpose in life. I'm not saying it's the worst time to be alive, but the mass appeal of no-religion, being agnostic is a real problem. I even doubt if I should continue being agnostic at times. Every once in a while I lose purpose and really haven't found a good way to cope with it.

Generally speaking, I think the cause of these shootings comes down to the feeling of helplessness and not feeling useful to society.

A lot of children (boys especially) in America aren't taught that rough play is OK, anymore. Wrestling and rough housing, as I did when I was a kid (GenXer) is actively frowned upon and stopped, I've noticed, more often than not. I have a 7 year old and I'm amazed at how many of his friends are shocked when they see my son and his cousin wrestling about and race to tell me they're "fighting". I feel bad laughing when I have to explain to them that they're just wrestling around (his cousin is a girl and man, I hope her high school gets a girl's wrestling division - her take dows are awesome). I think American kids are so unfamiliar with physical combat that, for a lot of them, their first step to fighting back is to reach for a gun because that's all they've been shown on TV. Physical combat sport in any form is just so foreign to them, using a gun is much more intuitive.

Hah, love it!

My daughter is younger and smaller than my son, but in any "fun sibling violence" situation she just doesn't stop hassling until she thinks she's "won" or us parents have to intervene. They never really come close to even danger of the spilling-blood-kind of physicality, but my daughter constantly surprises me with what punishment she's willing to risk just to try and "get the last one in". She's tougher than him.

The "gun as solution" psychology is definitely a large part of the problem.

With zero tolerance policies a punch will get you a two week suspension on your "permanent" school record while the bully will get a day or nothing.

Yeah, but (pardon my French) who the fuck cares? Straight-A valedictorian reporting in. I’d’ve advised middle school me that this (a punch to the nose) couldn’t be a worse resolution.

With crap middle school administration, the bullied are ending up in detention (or worse) while the provocateurs are getting away without repercussion.

I agree. Yet part of the problem is that your future kinda depends on it. You could be cataloged as having 'mental issues' for punching a guy in the face, even if it was for self defense. But yeah, I guess your point still stands since we've lost our sense of what's right and standing up for ourselves. The "Fine, I'll do it myself" meme would definitely apply here.

My middle school grades and teacher recommendations got me into an elite high school. If I had thrown punches at bullies, got suspended, missed test, etc.. I wouldn't have had that opportunity. Most people's middle school grades are probably useless but I dunno maybe they get them into a higher track in 9th grade like AP courses and stuff vs remedial work.

>Yeah, but (pardon my French) who the fuck cares?

Well, the people suffering from it who haven't figured out that it doesn't matter. And the school certainly won't tell you that because of moral hazard; suffering ensues.

>With crap middle school administration, the bullied are ending up in detention (or worse) while the provocateurs are getting away without repercussion.

Working as intended.