News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by thunderbird120 on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @07:26AM (#31502981)
Approval voting is simultaneously simpler to understand, more effective in achieving results voters are happy with, and is inherently de-polarizing for obvious reasons. It's also very easy to understand why someone won when the winning criteria is "be the person that the largest number of voters are okay with".
Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by notahacker on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @07:52AM (#31503216)
Superficially it's simpler to understand. The actual tactics are even more complex than FPTP (and unlike ranked choice, it's not potential edge cases where rank order matters but every vote involving a decision about how low a bar of "wouldn't absolutely hate them running the country" to set for the people you approve vs the "every additional vote I approve might hurt the candidate I actually want to win)

I do agree that it tends to be depolarising in the candidates that win, but at the same time it still strongly incentivises moderates to ensure the most partisan alternative candidates get plenty of campaign airtime (both to scare moderates who identify with the other side of the aisle into putting "approve" next to their relatively moderate name, and as a "dirty tricks" campaign to promote the idea of bullet voting the other side's radicals to the other side's base)

Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by clolege on Thursday May 26, 2022 @04:42AM (#31516093)
> The actual tactics are even more complex than FPTP

Maybe marginally? How would you describe the tactics of FPTP? They may be simpler, but in some elections it is the difference of expressing your actual preferences and voting for "who you have to."

The nice thing with AV that I often see overlooked is that it always in a voters interest to vote for their favorite candidate. This is called the favorite betrayal criterion, and nearly all ordinal voting methods (inc FPTP) fail it.

Even still though - the UX, strategy, counting, and expressing results of ranked choice voting (IRV) is considerably more complex than both AV and FPTP. And its failure of the precinct summability criterion is a huge liability that we could just avoid entirely.

If you are in favor of other types of ranking, such as Borda, why not just Score? Score is counted identically, but without the restriction of "you can only vote for one candidate in each rank or we'll toss your ballot."

I agree that it would be nicer to give a more nuanced vote than just like/dislike, but I personally see AV as a stepping stone to other, more nuanced forms of Cardinal Voting. And who knows? Many online interfaces have moved from the star system in favor of thumbs up/down, and none that I'm aware of use ranking. Maybe there is an argument for a simpler UX in order to get more people to engage.

Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by zajio1am on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @09:09AM (#31503997)
Approval voting is hard. My voting preferences pretty much match ranked-choice model, but approval requires reducing that to just two levels, so setting the bar is either arbitrary, or requires much information about decisions of other people.
Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by ClayShentrup on Friday May 27, 2022 @12:03PM (#31531182)
This is a common intuition-based fallacy. The total information throughput of approval voting is actually GREATER than for ranked methods, when you factor in the tabulation efficiency and tactical voting effects.

https://electionscience.org/library/expressiveness-in-approv...

Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by manholio on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @07:43AM (#31503129)
Approval voting is very sensitive to strategic voting. Outside of toy elections where people are altruistically trying to find the best candidate, it reverts to similar dynamics as First-Past-the-Post.
Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by ClayShentrup on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @12:41PM (#31506972)
on the contrary, approval voting is specifically beloved by game theory experts for its immense resistance to tactical voting. for instance, NYU professor of political science and *game theory*, steven brams.

bayesian regret and voter satisfaction efficiency calculations show approval voting generally outperforming alternatives such as instant runoff voting ("ranked choice voting") with any mixture of strategic or honest voters.

https://www.rangevoting.org/BayRegsFig https://rpubs.com/Jameson-Quinn/VSE5key

part of the reason this happens is that the IRV/RCV tabulation mechanism flat out ignores much of the preference information on the ballot. https://www.rangevoting.org/IrvIgnoreExample.html

approval voting is also just much more resistant to gamesmanship. it satisfies the "favorite betrayal criterion", meaning it can never hurt you to support your favorite candidate with approval voting. for instance, my aunt voted for biden even tho she preferred warren, to try to stop trump. if she had been ranking them in a single IRV/RCV election, she would have analogously ranked biden in 1st even tho she preferred warren. this kind of tactic means electability is still key, and it disadvantages third party and independent candidates.

with approval voting by contrast, she might strategically vote for biden (her 2nd choice) but she would still be free to also approve warren, as that could not possibly cause a worse outcome for her.

the center for election science has a good compilation of the best articles on tactical voting.

https://electionscience.org/library/tactical-voting-basics/

there's also an excellent book on the topic, called "gaming the vote".

https://www.amazon.com/Gaming-Vote-Elections-Arent-About/dp/...

Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by CarVac on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @07:45AM (#31503141)
Has this been demonstrated?
Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by manholio on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @07:50AM (#31503203)
I can't be bothered to search for academic papers, but I've seen it use in real elections to designate party candidates. Voters were absolutely rabid, marking exclusively for candidates from their group. The largest group gets a clean slate and the unaligned voters, instead of acting like swings, are simply ignored.
Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by ZeroGravitas on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @07:58AM (#31503278)
This misses the point dramatically.

If someone is favoured by a large enough group, they're supposed to win.

The point is what happens when people aren't fanatical but are forced to vote as if they were.

Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by manholio on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @08:15AM (#31503411)
The point is to have fair representation. If a 30% fanatical minority can get a 100% clean slate for its candidates by voting strategically, AV fails.

In a single winner election AV makes coordination among moderates somewhat easier, so it's an improvement, but still inferior to Ranked Choice/STV with multi-member districts.

Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by ClayShentrup on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @10:32AM (#31505101)
Approval voting gets very good results even under asymmetrical strategy.

https://rpubs.com/Jameson-Quinn/VSE5key

Your scenario is unrealistic because real humans aren't that tightly clustered, so you get defectors. And people vote strategically. The winning position is the centroid.

https://www.rangevoting.org/AppCW

It is not known whether proportional representation can compete with the best single winner voting methods. We don't have enough data and we can't do multi-winter Bayesian regret calculations confidently. Here's an article you really should read if you think proportion representation is the answer.

https://www.rangevoting.org/PropRep

Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by jjitz on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @11:16AM (#31505749)
There is a litany of research showing that proportional representation leads to more representative and stable democracies, both in terms of empirical outcomes and normative political theory. Saying we don't have enough data just because some borderline-crackpot blogger doesn't like it is pretty disingenuous.
Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by ClayShentrup on Saturday May 28, 2022 @07:22PM (#31544737)
Here's a compilation of the best expert research, arguing for and against PR. https://www.rangevoting.org/PropRep

A. The research compares proportional (PR) methods to plurality voting, the worst single-winner voting method there is. But superior methods like score voting and approval voting roughly double the accuracy (i.e. group welfare) compared to plurality voting. So no, there's no research showing the superiority of PR to these methods.

B. Even in that limited comparison, of PR to plurality voting, the data still is actually not that clear. For instance, Canada uses plurality voting rather than PR, and is rated as one of the most high functioning democracies by The Economist. Meanwhile lots of proportional democracies are far worse than plurality countries. Compare proportional Brazil (and several other Latin countries) to non-proportional UK, Canada, and USA.

Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by manholio on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @12:27PM (#31506766)
> It is not known whether proportional representation can compete with the best single winner voting methods.

I don't know the metric you are using here, but it is surely purely academic, as the rest of your comment. The idea that a single candidate can better represent a smaller (and usually gerrymandered) district than a larger number of diverse candidates in a larger district flies in the face of everything we know about real democracies and party systems.

> Your scenario is unrealistic because real humans aren't that tightly clustered, so you get defectors.

Again, theoretical claims against real world experience. I've experienced polarization in AV to the point where center becomes a wasted vote, and people are incentivized to support one of the two dominant slates.

Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by ClayShentrup on Saturday May 28, 2022 @07:26PM (#31544764)
> The idea that a single candidate can better represent a smaller (and usually gerrymandered) district than a larger number of diverse candidates in a larger district flies in the face of everything we know about real democracies and party systems.

This is simply not correct. Elections are a form of statistical sampling, and with a good single-winner voting method, all voters of every stripe affect the centroid position, "tugging" it left, right, etc. Which you can see graphically depicted here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4FXLQoLDBA

> Again, theoretical claims against real world experience.

You're not citing any real world data that contradicts my argument.

> I've experienced polarization in AV to the point where center becomes a wasted vote, and people are incentivized to support one of the two dominant slates.

If you mean "alternative vote" (known to experts like myself as "Instant Runoff Voting"), note that I'm not advocating that. I'm advocating cardinal methods such as score voting and approval voting. Which tend to elect broadly appealing centrists.

https://www.rangevoting.org/IrvExtreme

Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by ZeroGravitas on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @02:09PM (#31508297)
Approval voting has a single winner, which seems to not be the scenario you are talking about.

Perhaps you were using one of these variants.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiwinner_approval_voting

You should probably specify to avoid confusion.

Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by jjitz on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @09:41AM (#31504375)
AV is great for a single winner. As you have noticed, if you elect multiple winners the "naive" way then you can get unproportional outcomes. However, there are simple ways to use approval to elect winners proportionally! One easy example is this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_proportional_approv...
Re:Ranked-Choice Voting Is More Democratic, Not Less by CarVac on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @09:20AM (#31504125)
This probably is a difference in PoV based on how many of your elections are multi-winner versus single-winner.

I was mostly thinking about single-winner elections because the big headline elections in the US are all single-winner.