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Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by jaywalk on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:00AM (#31434760)
For basic interaction, you don't need anything but vanilla JS. Browsers have come a long way since the days where jQuery was almost necessary to deal with all of the minor differences/bugs in various browsers.
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by spicybright on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:09AM (#31434855)
I'll admit I'm a bit out of practice with the state of vanilla JS, but it seems like you'll be re-inventing the wheel for simple stuff.

Like a collapsible section that's lightly animated.

I worry too about people not considering accessibility.

A lot of my bugs day to day is not being able to tab into things like hover menus or being able to activate buttons because someone forgot to consider correct event callbacks.

Maybe it's different now, but using a jQuery makes it more likely the code will cover cases like that.

Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by onion2k on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:26AM (#31435076)
I worry too about people not considering accessibility.

This isn't a complaint you can level at the gov.uk team. They're obsessed with accessibility. Gov.uk is probably the best example of a well-designed, well-built, completely accessible website on the whole internet.

Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by spicybright on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:33AM (#31435180)
I meant more for anyone building a website.
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by psnehanshu on Thursday May 19, 2022 @04:55PM (#31440044)
Whilst *.GOV.IN (India) is the worst.
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by chipsa on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:23AM (#31435040)
Collapsible section? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/de...

There's some CSS transition stuff you can add to that to make it lightly animated: https://css-tricks.com/how-to-animate-the-details-element/

Yeah, jQuery might make some things easier, but when possible, using native HTML elements makes things even easier,

Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by nhinck on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:50AM (#31435406)
Hmm, I would agree that you can do 95%+ of stuff jQuery used to be used for in vanilla js or html/css in a nicer way but animated collapsible divs still require a stupid amount of js to achieve.
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by iCarrot on Thursday May 19, 2022 @11:31AM (#31436011)
Animated collapsible div can be done with 0 line of JS.

https://code-boxx.com/expand-collapse-div-css-only/

Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by nhinck on Friday May 20, 2022 @07:02AM (#31445722)
Uhh, did you check out how that actually functions? It looks like garbage.
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by ThunderSizzle on Friday May 20, 2022 @11:04AM (#31448444)
Agreed, this example looks like total shit.
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by Cthulhu_ on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:23AM (#31435037)
In 2020, a collapsible section is a matter of adding / removing a classname and a CSS animation; there's a few ways to do so, using jQuery is one, but you don't need thousands of lines of a JS library (network bandwidth + JS interpretation) to achieve that.
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by have_faith on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:52AM (#31435432)
Can CSS transitions and animations handle animating to auto height/widths yet?
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by d1sxeyes on Thursday May 19, 2022 @11:31AM (#31435997)
I don't think so. One trick I've used to good effect is setting an high max-height, then translating by 100% and removing pointer events.
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by flatcakes on Thursday May 19, 2022 @11:37AM (#31436095)
I feel like this solution feels subtly "wrong" if you're animating, because that high max height will be arbitrarily far away from where you'd normally want to animate to. Doubly so for easing out.
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by d1sxeyes on Thursday May 19, 2022 @12:00PM (#31436361)
Yeah it's a bit weird, but haven't found a better trick yet.
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by pacaro on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:14AM (#31434921)
You bring up some interesting concerns. It's a good example of why there isn't a one size fits all answer. The UK gov site has high standards for these kind of things so will do it right anyway, but for a small shop leaning on a framework makes a lot of sense
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by mitchdoogle on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:39AM (#31435256)
If you've been using jQuery for years, know it, and can write a good amount of code without looking at a reference, then by all means, keep using it. It's not going anywhere anytime soon.
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by andybak on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:06AM (#31434822)
It's a much nicer syntax and has a ton of useful helpers.

Vanilla js for similar things just looks like someone has waved the ugly stick at it.

There are sound arguments against jQuery but the "you can just use vanilla" is the least convincing.

Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by jaywalk on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:09AM (#31434858)
Not having to load yet another JS library on your page if you don't really need it is a pretty good argument, I'd say.
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by kijin on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:17AM (#31434967)
Except we've become so used to loading multiple megabytes of JS even on a simple blog post, that a 30KB library probably won't make a noticeable difference. Insofar as file size is concerned, I'd much rather pull in jQuery than some random npm package that depends on god-knows-how-many other random packages.

Even GOV.UK, an incredibly lean website by today's standards, only noticed a 10% difference in their benchmarks.

Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by Deukhoofd on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:20AM (#31435006)
A 10% performance gain is quite a big deal, I wouldn't just shove it under the table like that.
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by Dudeman112 on Thursday May 19, 2022 @12:46PM (#31436973)
Like every % comparison, it depends on the baseline.

Cue all the people going on about big O for parts of the code that are indistinguishable from noise in actual benchmarks.

Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by andybak on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:23AM (#31435044)
Yes. You'll note that I already anticipated that in my original point. I was very specific in how I worded it for good reason.
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by mejutoco on Thursday May 19, 2022 @12:04PM (#31436424)
This is not the case anymore but I remember when Angular was including a version of jQuery, and having methods like "doSthAsInJquery" (paraphrasing) in Angular, and I could still hear everyday that Angular didn't have the overhead of including jQuery.

I wish we could have standardized in the Linq-like API of jQuery.

Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by sofixa on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:16AM (#31434952)
OP's argument is that jQuery is all you need for basic use cases, so that'd be the only JS library loaded.
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by dgb23 on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:29AM (#31435129)
To add: jQuery is a pretty huge library for what it does. Talking both bundle size and execution speed. Not that the latter is noticeable for most cases, but it's still a cost. The question is: What for?

The primary use case for it has been cross browser compatibility plus a bit of sugar. The former is _gone_ and the latter is easily replaced with a few lines of JS. Then there is an ecosystem of libraries and components around it. Many of them have ditched jQuery or have provided an API that doesn't require it.

Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by rtpg on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:34AM (#31435195)
30kb minified and gzipped! Less than most hero images. It's a nice API for simple stuff.

I think if you strip out the AJAX support it can get extremely tiny.

Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by dgb23 on Thursday May 19, 2022 @12:46PM (#31436971)
It adds tens of milliseconds to just downloading on a fast connection, plus it has to be parsed before what ever you need it to do will be functional.

To compare, just roughly:

For roughly the same size you can get declarative/reactive rendering with React, or an optimized FP standard library with ClojureScript, or data driven visualizations with d3 (roughly 2x the size).

For a tenth of the size you can get stuff like htmx, or a json validation library (avj), or like someone said Preact (React alternative).

But for jQuery, you're paying that for basically nothing the browser APIs don't already provide. It was a godsend 10y ago, but with legacy browsers finally fading out, the last one being ie11, you really don't _need_ it anymore.

Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by Rumudiez on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:41AM (#31435280)
30kb gzipped is still 10x larger than Preact for reference
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by SemanticStrengh on Thursday May 19, 2022 @11:12AM (#31435747)
that doesn't make it an issue in any way, it's not a numbers competition unless you have a 56K
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by Smaug123 on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:34PM (#31438361)
One of the explicit goals of gov.uk is to be maximally accessible, and that includes for people accessing the Internet on a potato or who have a metered connection.
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by lowwave on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:53AM (#31435448)
or use https://axios-http.com/ for ajax stuff
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by jenscow on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:55AM (#31435469)
Right. However, jQuery isn't just for cross-browser.

It provides a clean API for manipulating the DOM, as this site demonstrates (which is ironic): https://youmightnotneedjquery.com/

Personally, for simple sites, I aim for vanilla JS but use jQuery (cash, actually) where it makes sense - such as working on collections of elements.

Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by SemanticStrengh on Thursday May 19, 2022 @11:10AM (#31435720)
for real its superior ergonomy is painfully obvious
Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by criddell on Thursday May 19, 2022 @11:15AM (#31435776)
You can do quite a bit without Javascript too. A lot of websites don't need much more than simple menus.

Steve Gibson's site is an example:

https://www.grc.com/default.htm

Re:Gov.uk drops jQuery from their front end by seydor on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:49AM (#31435393)
i see a lot of

   const $ = document.querySelector.bind(document);