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Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by polygamous_bat on Saturday May 14, 2022 @12:33PM (#31379621)
Because past performance is _always_ indicative of future performance, am I right?

> When in the last five years have you had difficulty cashing out USDT, USDC, or DAI at dollar value?

You could have said the exact same thing about Terra/UST right until sometimes last week. It works until it doesn't.

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by practice9 on Saturday May 14, 2022 @08:06PM (#31383969)
Same could be said for US dollar as a world currency, couldn't it? Do you think its model is sustainable?

British pound has enjoyed a long history and was used as a currency for international trade until early 20st century. Then dollar took over.

One could argue it's because USA emerged from WW2 as a super-power.

But it would be foolish to say that only a major war or a fall of the empire will change what currency people use.

I'm not arguing for Terra as it was really a bad design. But it is odd that so many people just reject the idea of cryptocurrencies.

It's a big sandbox, big experiment with thousands of people working on the new primitives. Even if 80% projects are scam or failures, 20% might be revolutionary. The US dollar as it is today went through several iterations

It was kind of a stablecoin in the early days, pegged to the value of Spanish dollar which was more popular. There were also Continentals that failed and many colonial currencies that were outlawed IIRC.

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by Traster on Sunday May 15, 2022 @04:50AM (#31386234)
What you're describing is totally different in scale though. When the British pound got displaced as the currency for international trade it didn't suddenly lose 99.9999% of its value in a weekend. And whilst the Dollar isn't guaranteed to be the most popular currency for international trade, it's still going to be the currency a bunch of guys with guns insist Americans pay taxes in. There are real reasons people must hold real currencies. There are no reasons that anyone needs to hold crypto.

I'm not saying crypto has no value, but I'm saying it's not comparable to a modern currency. You might be right that it's similar to some historical examples of weak upstart currencies most of which failed, but even those were backed by a lot more than just... what? In this case we're literally comparing to currencies that are often backed by nothing.

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by practice9 on Sunday May 15, 2022 @07:20AM (#31386855)
> it's still going to be the currency a bunch of guys with guns insist Americans pay taxes in

Well, yeah, most currencies are defacto backed by military force. That fact creates bad incentives.

Crypto doesn't have this luxury, it can be only be backed by the trust in code. If the currency is trusted - because it's open-source, open for all to use, is well designed - it's value is going to go up. See Bitcoin and Ethereum as best examples of this.

This make a decision whether to use a particular coin similar to choosing Python vs JVM and their ecosystems.

To be fair, I don't think stablecoins work well in that context. The information on how they are backed is not completely public, the companies issuing stablecoins are not that well audited...They are blobs of closed-source "stuff" that look like 1$

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by Traster on Monday May 16, 2022 @11:35AM (#31398978)
Sure, and UST is another example of this, it built a multi-billion dollar market cap by obfuscating the fact you were buying a perpetual motion machine. The incentive created by "trust the code" is "lie about the code". Which is why you'll hear several thousand reasons why BTC is valuable but none are as compelling as "Those bunch of guys over there will shoot you if you try and undermine it", and most of them aren't even as compelling as "Number goes up".

The theory is that the market can efficiently decide whether the code actually does work. But the practice is that you can make billions tricking people about what the code does. And often it's people who have never even glanced at the code telling you what it does. I would wager good money that there was no one invested in UST that understood the code.

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by polygamous_bat on Saturday May 14, 2022 @09:40PM (#31384496)
Currencies rise and fall, and US dollar may as well get replaced by the Chinese yen as the world reserve currency by 2050. But that does not in any way merit cryptocurrencies, whose uselessness is independent of the failures of the US monetary policy.

Your argument reminds me of the Politician's fallacy, which goes like: "we should invest in an alternative asset in case the US dollar fails, cryptocurrency is something, thus we should invest in cryptocurrencies." Go read this thread to understand the numerous criticisms of cryptocurrencies and then think why any of the existing cryptocurrencies should be worth beyond $0 (or slightly more, I admit they are novel and thus could be a collectible).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by Gordonjcp on Sunday May 15, 2022 @06:47AM (#31386704)
> British pound has enjoyed a long history and was used as a currency for international trade until early 20st century. Then dollar took over.

The British Pound is still worth about the same proportionately to the dollar as it always was, and no-one would look at you funny for paying for stuff in pounds.

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by tomrod on Saturday May 14, 2022 @12:39PM (#31379684)
Typically, past performance is indicative of future behavior. This is why statistical modeling in social sciences works somewhat okay. But there are extrapolation regions or shorter memory missing prior events that cause behavior to deviate from status quo expectation.
Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by arcticbull on Saturday May 14, 2022 @03:52PM (#31381699)
Have you heard the tale of the inductivist turkey and thanksgiving?

  This turkey found that, on his first morning at the turkey farm, he was fed at 9 a.m. However, being a good inductivist, he did not jump to conclusions. He waited until he had collected a large number of observations of the fact that he was fed at 9 a.m., and he made these observations under a wide variety of circumstances, on Wednesdays and Thursdays, on warm days and cold days, on rainy days and dry days. Each day, he added another observation statement to his list. Finally, his inductivist conscience was satisfied and he carried out an inductive inference to conclude, “I am always fed at 9 a.m.”. Alas, this conclusion was shown to be false in no uncertain manner when, on Christmas eve, instead of being fed, he had his throat cut. An inductive inference with true premises has led to a false conclusion. (via Alan Chalmers, What is this thing called Science, 2nd edition, University of Queensland Press, St. Lucia, 1982)
Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by SilasX on Saturday May 14, 2022 @04:19PM (#31381923)
Have you heard of faster ways of conveying the insight that “turkeys seem safe until the day they get slaughtered” and less toxic ways of formatting quotes?

And was it a fully general argument against induction, or do you disagree with the conclusion you were promoting?

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by Jerrrry on Saturday May 14, 2022 @01:03PM (#31379948)
"The reaper didn't come today, so he won't tomorrow"
Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by z9znz on Saturday May 14, 2022 @01:44PM (#31380446)
The thing is, you're right many times until you're wrong. Unfortunately when you're wrong, it can be catastrophic.
Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by IshKebab on Saturday May 14, 2022 @03:39PM (#31381565)
... is a pretty good approximation.

The problem is that you don't care if a stablecoin collapses tomorrow; you care if it collapses in the next 50 years and "the stablecoin hasn't collapsed in 50 years so it won't collapse in the next 50 years" obviously doesn't apply.

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by everfree on Saturday May 14, 2022 @01:37PM (#31380358)
For technology, that assumption is more likely than not, in a general sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by tdub311 on Saturday May 14, 2022 @02:51PM (#31381089)
Value of an asset doesn't really count as technology though. The technology of UST/Luna still "works" even though the value crashed.
Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by everfree on Saturday May 14, 2022 @04:33PM (#31382055)
UST was intended to be a dollar-pegged stablecoin. The failure of its dollar peg was certainly a failure of technology, because a "dollar-pegged" coin that is not actually pegged to the dollar is not a "working" system.
Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by polygamous_bat on Saturday May 14, 2022 @12:44PM (#31379753)
Yes, you could say that sometimes past performance can indicate future behavior, but it doesn't hold for crypto the same reason it doesn't hold for perpetual motion machines.
Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by everfree on Saturday May 14, 2022 @01:32PM (#31380300)
Algorithmic and partially backed stablecoins (like Luna's TerraUSD) are perpetual motion machines.

Fully backed stablecoins (all other popular stablecoins with the arguable exception of Tether) are not perpetual motion machines.

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by austinkhale on Saturday May 14, 2022 @02:06PM (#31380632)
What do you mean “fully backed”? The last time I checked on USDT (which was a while ago) I thought they admitted it was a fractional reserve, primarily denominated in undisclosed commercial paper. Additionally, they had not yet received an unqualified audit report from any of the big four. Has something changed in the last year or so?
Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by everfree on Saturday May 14, 2022 @02:22PM (#31380798)
As I said, Tether (USDT) is an arguable exception. You seem to be arguing that exception. I don't disagree with you.
Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by polygamous_bat on Saturday May 14, 2022 @03:35PM (#31381540)
Tether is the largest stablecoin in existence. If you are intent on arguing that the biggest example of your mentioned category is an exception, how do you propose the average person goes about find out what's an exception and what's following the norm?
Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by everfree on Saturday May 14, 2022 @04:24PM (#31381966)
Picking any regulated, US-based stablecoin is a great start.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31381864

Tether is large because it got a head start on network effect before the proper regulatory frameworks were put into place, in the USA at least. There's a massive amount of momentum there even though their product is inferior.

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by low_tech_love on Saturday May 14, 2022 @04:01PM (#31381784)
I’m genuinely curious, can you point me to credible information showing that some other stablecoin is actually fully backed?
Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by everfree on Saturday May 14, 2022 @04:12PM (#31381864)
USDC backing, audited by a large US accounting firm: https://www.centre.io/usdc-transparency

GUSD backing, also audited by a large US accounting firm, subject to New York State Department of Financial Services regulations: https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/gusd-stablecoin-gemini-do...

USDP backing, also audited by a large US accounting firm and subject to New York State Department of Financial Services regulations: https://paxos.com/usdp/

DAI backing, viewable transparently on-chain. Currently backed 168% by collateral: https://daistats.com/#/overview

LUSD backing, viewable transparently on-chain. Currently backed 189% by collateral: https://dune.com/dani/Liquity

UST (Terra/Luna) and USDT (Tether) have/had nothing like this.

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by low_tech_love on Sunday May 15, 2022 @11:26AM (#31388129)
Cool, thanks a lot! But why is it then that these currencies are not as attractive or hyped as Tether and UST? Could it be that the fact they are properly backed makes them less interesting for those who want a more adventurous kind of investment?
Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by everfree on Sunday May 15, 2022 @03:26PM (#31390233)
Tether is popular because it was the first stablecoin by several years (e.g. Tether launched in 2014, USDC launched in 2018). Much like Bitcoin, Tether isn't a particularly good product nowadays if you look at its fundamental properties - most of its usefulness comes from its extrinsic properties such as liquidity and demand. However, much like Bitcoin, due to its very early launch, Tether became an early schelling point that has gathered significant liquidity/usage due to network effect (liquidity begets liquidity).

TerraUSD (UST) was hyped up and became popular mainly because the network paid 20% APY interest on UST deposits, which is a way higher rate on a "stablecoin" than you can get anywhere else (rates in much safer protocols are about 5-8% right now). Obviously a 20% interest rate is unsustainable when it's supported by money printed from thin air. But people were either unaware of this (unsophisticated investors), chose to overlook it (calculated risk-takers, RIP), or positioned themselves to be able to find a chair right before the music stopped (institutional investors like Celsius).

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by low_tech_love on Monday May 16, 2022 @09:15PM (#31404897)
Just wanted to thank you again for all the valuable information. It’s certainly food for thought during a couple of coffee breaks!
Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by syzygyhack on Saturday May 14, 2022 @01:49PM (#31380490)
1. UST hasn't existed for 5 years, the others have.

2. "Algostable" coins are experimental, and this one was propped up by ponzinomics on Anchor. It is not comparable to collateralized stablecoins, and claiming otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by stouset on Saturday May 14, 2022 @02:32PM (#31380889)
1. The beanie baby craze lasted a bit shy of 5 years. 5 years is nothing.

2. Collateralized stablecoins are stable insofar as they actually have enough liquid collateral to redeem. None of these coins have even remotely been tested yet.

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by syzygyhack on Saturday May 14, 2022 @02:53PM (#31381120)
You don't think USDT holders have been scrambling to exit USDT over the last few days? Actually the sensible ones started cashing out around 1-2 months ago. You say that they have "not been remotely tested?" How are you quantifying that claim?
Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by arcticbull on Saturday May 14, 2022 @03:54PM (#31381716)
USDT can only be redeemed by non-US-person "authorized participants" as determined solely by Paolo Ardoino per their terms and conditions. Just who do you think these APs are? Best guess, they're exchanges, whose existence depends on USDT continuing to hold it's peg.

Yes, I do think the holders have been scrambling to exist - one guy lost $4M trying to swap for USDT - but I think it's not Tether cashing it out, but instead exchanges eating the losses.

That can only get you so far. The failure mode is a step function.

Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by SemanticStrengh on Saturday May 14, 2022 @03:21PM (#31381401)
no, terra is an algorithmic coin, the ones that are 100% backed by IRL assets are flawless
Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by arcticbull on Saturday May 14, 2022 @03:55PM (#31381726)
Depends on the assets doesn't it.
Re:Coffeezilla, a YouTuber Exposing Crypto Scams by bushbaba on Sunday May 15, 2022 @01:18AM (#31385434)
What if those assets decline in Value by 50% where assets held is 50% or less than equivalent usd value?